Congrats Go Jets

[waka]

Congrats on the new flying! It looks like being a scumbag alter ego 70 seat airline flying at 50 seat pay rates has paid off for you. You guys are something else. Keep it up. Being the new cancer in the regional world really takes the focus off of Mesa...

You're WAY behind the curve. GoJet's beginnings was alter ego, but now they are no different than any other regional airline. Slow on the uptake and don't keep up very well do ya?

 

[waka]

You know, I have been reading the ALPA bashers, particularly Joe Merchant blame this recent wrinkle on ALPA, but let me ask you this....isn't this just plain old competition between companies providing a service? Let me explain.

For example, United and Delta fly mainline flights between ORD and ATL with mainline aircraft. Is it ALPA's fault that it "allows" such competition between two ALPA carriers? How about when you have an undercutting non-union carrier like Virgin America competing against UAL out of SFO. Is that ALPA's fault too?

Look, we all have to deal with competition, including competition from crappy, undercutting airlines. That unfortunately is part of the biz. Regional airlines are no different. The regionals are not special. You're going to have to compete against POS carriers just like the mainline, and unfortunately you're going to sustain some wounds. If you don't like the competition, get a government job.

Guys like Joe are just scared because that 18 day off a month, 6 figure job that they have been bragging about on this very forum are now at risk. Just as the mainline guys have had to take significant pay cuts in order to compete with the low cost competition like Frontier, Valujet, JetBlue, etc., unfortunately I think RJ guys, in particular guys like Joe who make out sized salaries are going to start feeling some pain, and they need someome to blame.

Sorry Joe, it isn't ALPA hurting you. It is the same low ball, undercutting airlines that we have had to deal with particularly painfully in the past 15 years that are hurting you. If anyone at ASA needs to take a hit, it is guys like you, not a $20K/year F/O.

Wow! No offense, but you're really clueless. As long as the good ol' boys club at ALPA has a 2 tiered system, they don't benefit the industry one bit.

I would rather have a real union than an association representing me.

 

[Full of LUV]

I'll keep it short and sweet.
It's ALPA representing both the mainline and regional's....those same regional's who are flying mainline routes (3-4 hour legs shouldn't be done in an RJ) for cheaper wages than mainline pilots. On top of it ALPA is representing the regionals who are undercutting each other to do the flying for cheaper.
As long as the regionals keep flying bigger and bigger airplanes, they're going to be putting themselves out of jobs at the mainlines.
Yet ALPA (nationals and local) does nothing to stop the larger air frames from coming to the regional property.

You do realize that ALPA National is just an association and each individual MEC at each company is actually the union and bargining agent right?
ALPA National is sort of like AFLCIO, they don't negotiate anything, just support the MEC's with resources to negotiate compentently.
There needs to be some sort of national "MIN" floor of compensation set up by national in order to be considered part of the association and what ever benes that could provide, but up to now, alpa national has definitely been too interested in capturing enough of the pilots to make any sort of strategy, especially one that may alienate any particular pilot groups.

 

[johnpeace]

Is truckmasters still in business?

No, but everyone needs a database...check out databaseprogrammingmasters.

 

[ualdriver]

I'll keep it short and sweet.
It's ALPA representing both the mainline and regional's....those same regional's who are flying mainline routes (3-4 hour legs shouldn't be done in an RJ) for cheaper wages than mainline pilots. On top of it ALPA is representing the regionals who are undercutting each other to do the flying for cheaper.
As long as the regionals keep flying bigger and bigger airplanes, they're going to be putting themselves out of jobs at the mainlines.
Yet ALPA (nationals and local) does nothing to stop the larger air frames from coming to the regional property.

Got it. The problem is RJ pilots flying these routes for crap wages and undercutting mainline pilots. And the solution to that problem is to kick the regionals out of ALPA, and let them negotiate higher wages WITHOUT the extensive resources ALPA brings to the negotiating table. Or better yet, let them go unrepresented by any union and let them try to obtain higher wages on their own. Sounds like a good idea to me.

 

[Varmint]

Got it. The problem is RJ pilots flying these routes for crap wages and undercutting mainline pilots. And the solution to that problem is to kick the regionals out of ALPA, and let them negotiate higher wages WITHOUT the extensive resources ALPA brings to the negotiating table. Or better yet, let them go unrepresented by any union and let them try to obtain higher wages on their own. Sounds like a good idea to me.

Really? I thought the problem was the mainline pilots who were greedy and above flying small jets so they allowed smaller equipment to be farmed out in their contracts in exchange for more money and a better QOL. This mess would not have occurred had that not occurred in the first place, do you agree?

Speaking of crap wages...check out year 1-5 pay at most of the legacies for FO's. It is less than Captain pay at the regionals. Also, check out the E170/190 and CRJ900 rates some of the mainline pilots have negotiated....they are less than some regional rates. That would be mainline pilots undercutting the regional pilots and bringing down the profession, would it not?

Pilot goes to HO-Jet (or any other regional) to gain experience and accepts the low pay....same pilot gets hired at a legacy and forgets his roots (ring a bell? Unless you were military, judging from your post, you forgot your roots)...same pilot is proud of his big airplane and when contract time comes around he votes to farm out small aircraft flying for more "big" planes and a large pay increase. WE are our own worst Enemy....ALL of us.

 

[ualdriver]

Wow! No offense, but you're really clueless. As long as the good ol' boys club at ALPA has a 2 tiered system, they don't benefit the industry one bit.

I would rather have a real union than an association representing me.

Well, if that is what you want, then start one. I don't think there is anything preventing you from doing that, is there?

 

[ualdriver]

Really? I thought the problem was the mainline pilots who were greedy and above flying small jets so they allowed smaller equipment to be farmed out in their contracts in exchange for more money and a better QOL. This mess would not have occurred had that not occurred in the first place, do you agree?

Speaking of crap wages...check out year 1-5 pay at most of the legacies for FO's. It is less than Captain pay at the regionals. Also, check out the E170/190 and CRJ900 rates some of the mainline pilots have negotiated....they are less than some regional rates. That would be mainline pilots undercutting the regional pilots and bringing down the profession, would it not?

Pilot goes to HO-Jet (or any other regional) to gain experience and accepts the low pay....same pilot gets hired at a legacy and forgets his roots (ring a bell? Unless you were military, judging from your post, you forgot your roots)...same pilot is proud of his big airplane and when contract time comes around he votes to farm out small aircraft flying for more "big" planes and a large pay increase. WE are our own worst Enemy....ALL of us.

Actually, the core problem with the industry is too many pilots chasing too few jobs. It has been that way for a solid 4 decades now. That is where the problem starts. Supply and demand are out of whack in this industry, which leads to low wages. Wages that are lower than one would ordinarily expect for the educational and experience requirements for a job like this.

As I have stated REPEATEDLY on this forum, the mainline pilots made a mistake by allowing Rj flying to be farmed out in the first place, starting in the 90's. Two points on that. One, hindsight is 20/20. Many at the time thought using RJ's for feed would enhance growth at the mainline and lead to more jobs. Few anticipated the abuse of the RJ system that would take place. Two, even if the mainline pilots had said no to RJ flying back in the 90's, what do you think would have happened when the mainline airlines went into bankruptcy or were forced to give concessions to avoid bankruptcy? Do you really think that airline management wouldn't have gotten all that RJ flying anyway under the gavel of a bankruptcy court judge?

Your point about RJ pay...a few thoughts. One, the mainline pilots have yet to go through a full contract cycle after their bankruptcy contract, so some of those FO rates you refer to have yet to be adjusted, particularly at United, CAL, and US Air off the top of my head. Two, I am not sure that there is anything wrong with a RJ Captain making a wage that is higher than a 1-5 year mainline FO?

What mainline airlines have contractual CRJ 900/E190 rates that are significantly less than regional rates? Feel free to post them as I am not familiar with the implication of this widespread mainline undercutting you are talking about?

 

[Freebrd]

What mainline airlines have contractual CRJ 900/E190 rates that are significantly less than regional rates? Feel free to post them as I am not familiar with the implication of this widespread mainline undercutting you are talking about?

DAL I believe, for one.

 

[ualdriver]

DAL I believe, for one.

And what rate is that? I don't see it on the airlinepilotcentral.com?

 

[Varmint]

Actually, the core problem with the industry is too many pilots chasing too few jobs. It has been that way for a solid 4 decades now. That is where the problem starts. Supply and demand are out of whack in this industry, which leads to low wages. Wages that are lower than one would ordinarily expect for the educational and experience requirements for a job like this.

Which came first, the chicken or the egg. If the jobs had not been farmed out in the first place, would the jobs had been available now at mainline wages and benefits or would the mass expansion have been slowed because it would have been more expensive for the airlines. As you said later....hindsight is 20/20 so we will really never know but we can speculate.

As I have stated REPEATEDLY on this forum, the mainline pilots made a mistake by allowing Rj flying to be farmed out in the first place, starting in the 90's. Two points on that. One, hindsight is 20/20. Many at the time thought using RJ's for feed would enhance growth at the mainline and lead to more jobs. Few anticipated the abuse of the RJ system that would take place. Two, even if the mainline pilots had said no to RJ flying back in the 90's, what do you think would have happened when the mainline airlines went into bankruptcy or were forced to give concessions to avoid bankruptcy? Do you really think that airline management wouldn't have gotten all that RJ flying anyway under the gavel of a bankruptcy court judge?

I agree that a mistake was made in allowing RJ flying to be farmed out. Had it been kept in house, I think the quick expansion into new smaller and riskier markets would have been more slow and controlled. Could that have helped to mitigate the economic situations with the airlines even after 9-11? I don't know.

Your point about RJ pay...a few thoughts. One, the mainline pilots have yet to go through a full contract cycle after their bankruptcy contract, so some of those FO rates you refer to have yet to be adjusted, particularly at United, CAL, and US Air off the top of my head. Two, I am not sure that there is anything wrong with a RJ Captain making a wage that is higher than a 1-5 year mainline FO?

Point taken about the contract cycle. I would like to see wages at the majors start at the top end of regional wages. Right now they don't. Everyone complains about a guy going to GO jet or Mesa but nobody complained when guys went to Northwest for $30 per hour for the first year, American for $35 hour etc. If you have the education and the experience to be hired at a major you ought to be paid as if you are working for a major from day 1, as you said in your first paragraph.

Regarding rates. I may have jumped the gun on saying that. I remember 5 years ago rates being posted for E-170/190 for most of the majors but I can't find them on APC right now or when searching. From what I remember, they were on average $5 less on the top pay from compass, ASA, Whisky's top pay. I suspect that the reason they are not on APC is because the aircraft are not on property or the rates were negotiated in a side letter.

 

[waka]

Well, if that is what you want, then start one. I don't think there is anything preventing you from doing that, is there?

Not necessary as I am already in a union.

 

[B727FA]

Bornhorst again forgets his roots. But he'll sacrifice Comair if it gets him a tee time with Anderson. I'll bet he shops for his wife's Anniversary gift at Wal Mart.

Nope. Saw him in Big Lots.

 

[B727FA]

Excellent article that describes the life/fate/cycle of regional carriers. How many of you are even old enough to know WHY you hate each other?

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/story.jsp?id=news/awst/2011/05/16/AW_05_16_2011_p44-318738.xml&channel=comm

 

[Meiguy]

And what rate is that? I don't see it on the airlinepilotcentral.com?

The 12 year rate for 2011 is $112 CA and $77 for a E190/CRJ900. 2012 is $117 and $80 respectively. Not great but certainly better than any regional out there. This is from the pay scales on our JCBA.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You guys do realize that you work for the lowest bidder right? The whole point is to get your time and move on.

The problem with this kind of thinking is it leads to crapholes like Virgin hiring A320 pilots at cut rates. And guys like you jump on them to "get the type rating." Meanwhile, the entire industry has to put up with Virgin...a giant Gojets.

I I also blame spineless jerkoff non ALPA alter ego fly for less than regional standard hoser pilots who are leading this race to the bottom by flying for these cum stain operations. Have you seen their pay rates? I don't even dare to read the rest of their contract.

Guess what they're creating? Another tier of undepaid pilots. Look no farther than Virgin if you don't believe it.

As long as the regionals keep flying bigger and bigger airplanes, they're going to be putting themselves out of jobs at the mainlines. Yet ALPA (nationals and local) does nothing to stop the larger air frames from coming to the regional property.

I guess a lot of RJ geniuses will discover that the CRJ7 is as far as they're going in this business. Sad, really.

 

[dooork]

Which came first, the chicken or the egg. If the jobs had not been farmed out in the first place, would the jobs had been available now at mainline wages and benefits or would the mass expansion have been slowed because it would have been more expensive for the airlines. As you said later....hindsight is 20/20 so we will really never know but we can speculate.



I agree that a mistake was made in allowing RJ flying to be farmed out. Had it been kept in house, I think the quick expansion into new smaller and riskier markets would have been more slow and controlled. Could that have helped to mitigate the economic situations with the airlines even after 9-11? I don't know.



Point taken about the contract cycle. I would like to see wages at the majors start at the top end of regional wages. Right now they don't. Everyone complains about a guy going to GO jet or Mesa but nobody complained when guys went to Northwest for $30 per hour for the first year, American for $35 hour etc. If you have the education and the experience to be hired at a major you ought to be paid as if you are working for a major from day 1, as you said in your first paragraph.

Regarding rates. I may have jumped the gun on saying that. I remember 5 years ago rates being posted for E-170/190 for most of the majors but I can't find them on APC right now or when searching. From what I remember, they were on average $5 less on the top pay from compass, ASA, Whisky's top pay. I suspect that the reason they are not on APC is because the aircraft are not on property or the rates were negotiated in a side letter.

Majors paying $30/hr for first year is their way of doing pay for training.