Congrats Go Jets

[BrickTop]

ALPA needs to figure out how to protect the regional ALPA pilots, and get flying under one list.

ALPA couldn't protect a cup of warm piss with a Bunsen burner. #### ALPA

 

[JustaNumber]

It's not a cost problem. It is a MANAGEMENT PROBLEM. These people don't get it. DO NOT let them get you into thinking you need to help out and give some money to help the cost problem. Look where that got XJT.

Fly your contract and go home. This place isn't worth it.

No, I believe it's a structural problem built into the industry, created by ALPA. It was ALPA who originally agreed to RJ outsourcing, the ultimate pilot B-scale, in order to subsidize the higher pay of the "major" pilots. It was ALPA who didn't try to put the cat back in the bag in 2000 when they had an opportunity to push for a DAL/CMR/ASA merge. It was also ALPA that created the longevity pay-scale concept that prevents good pilots from leaving bad airlines. This is the only industry where experienced professionals are not valued across company lines.

This is not a problem management can fix. The seniority system inherently creates higher-cost airlines as time progresses, so that more recently created airlines have a distinct cost advantage. A 10 year old airline will almost always be able to outbid a 30 year old airline. Pilots get caught in the middle of this ponzi scheme, and it is pure luck if you can make it through your career without your job and barely liveable pay being pulled out from underneath you, forcing you to start over at the bottom yet again. All for the purpose of continuing to subsidize those at the very top of the pyramid.

The worst thing is, there's almost no way of transitioning to a more stable system. So we have to keep relying on luck to protect our own personal careers.

 

[JoeMerchant]

No, I believe it's a structural problem built into the industry, created by ALPA. It was ALPA who originally agreed to RJ outsourcing, the ultimate pilot B-scale, in order to subsidize the higher pay of the "major" pilots. It was ALPA who didn't try to put the cat back in the bag in 2000 when they had an opportunity to push for a DAL/CMR/ASA merge. It was also ALPA that created the longevity pay-scale concept that prevents good pilots from leaving bad airlines. This is the only industry where experienced professionals are not valued across company lines.

This is not a problem management can fix. The seniority system inherently creates higher-cost airlines as time progresses, so that more recently created airlines have a distinct cost advantage. A 10 year old airline will almost always be able to outbid a 30 year old airline. Pilots get caught in the middle of this ponzi scheme, and it is pure luck if you can make it through your career without your job and barely liveable pay being pulled out from underneath you, forcing you to start over at the bottom yet again. All for the purpose of continuing to subsidize those at the very top of the pyramid.

The worst thing is, there's almost no way of transitioning to a more stable system. So we have to keep relying on luck to protect our own personal careers.

BINGO....100% correct sir...Well stated!

 

[COOPERVANE]

Is truckmasters still in business?

 

[FishandFly]

Rocket Science..

Hey GoJet guys, how senior is your pilot group?

We have a seniority list filled with guys who have been here since the 80's all making well over 100k on our 18 year payscale.

If GoJet is able to keep it's pilots happy enough to stay onboard at their current benefits and payscale while we do the same at an additional $30-40 per hour I guess it makes sense that we have been outbid.


--

I guess this is how the majors feel when ASA takes their routes.

 

[Flyer1015]

Anger over GoJets is really directed at the wrong group. It isn't the GoJet pilots who are responsible for this. It is ALPA and greedy management. But ALPA is a big player that deserves the blame for a lot of this. Hulas Koolaid-nas and his management cronies did try to see if ALPA could come up with something agreeable for the bigger RJs. ALPA, overconfident and flexing their muslces, tried to play a game of hardball and it failed. It also bit them in the a$$. GoJets is actually a by-product of an ALPA failure. And, in one of life's little ironies, became the same place that ALPA sanctioned to send its furloughed pilots from United.

 

[i fly boxes]

Ok does anyone have a official release on this? I can't find anything

 

[777forever]

No, I believe it's a structural problem built into the industry, created by ALPA. It was ALPA who originally agreed to RJ outsourcing, the ultimate pilot B-scale, in order to subsidize the higher pay of the "major" pilots. It was ALPA who didn't try to put the cat back in the bag in 2000 when they had an opportunity to push for a DAL/CMR/ASA merge. It was also ALPA that created the longevity pay-scale concept that prevents good pilots from leaving bad airlines. This is the only industry where experienced professionals are not valued across company lines.

This is not a problem management can fix. The seniority system inherently creates higher-cost airlines as time progresses, so that more recently created airlines have a distinct cost advantage. A 10 year old airline will almost always be able to outbid a 30 year old airline. Pilots get caught in the middle of this ponzi scheme, and it is pure luck if you can make it through your career without your job and barely liveable pay being pulled out from underneath you, forcing you to start over at the bottom yet again. All for the purpose of continuing to subsidize those at the very top of the pyramid.

The worst thing is, there's almost no way of transitioning to a more stable system. So we have to keep relying on luck to protect our own personal careers.

Rocket Science..

Hey GoJet guys, how senior is your pilot group?

We have a seniority list filled with guys who have been here since the 80's all making well over 100k on our 18 year payscale.

If GoJet is able to keep it's pilots happy enough to stay onboard at their current benefits and payscale while we do the same at an additional $30-40 per hour I guess it makes sense that we have been outbid.


--

I guess this is how the majors feel when ASA takes their routes.

Spot on fellas!

ASA/XJT/SKW is screwed. Even Air Mekong cut back 1 plane. Our cost structure blows up the regional model and no paycut will fix it. If youre a younger guy, I would wait to see who takes the rest of our planes and abandon ship

 

[RJLoser]

Is truckmasters still in business?

Well played.

 

[Clutch]

Spot on fellas!

ASA/XJT/SKW is screwed. Even Air Mekong cut back 1 plane. Our cost structure blows up the regional model and no paycut will fix it. If youre a younger guy, I would wait to see who takes the rest of our planes and abandon ship

Is that your plan? Will you be turning in your 2 week notice?

 

[FishandFly]

Is that your plan? Will you be turning in your 2 week notice?

Is there a way to get younger?

 

[Clutch]

Is there a way to get younger?

What are you talking about, tard?

 

[FishandFly]

Quote:
Originally Posted by 777forever
Spot on fellas!

ASA/XJT/SKW is screwed. Even Air Mekong cut back 1 plane. Our cost structure blows up the regional model and no paycut will fix it. If youre a younger guy, I would wait to see who takes the rest of our planes and abandon ship

Is that your plan? Will you be turning in your 2 week notice?


nevermind

 

[WayBack]

In this tough economy and hard times in the industry, we at ALPA can just ask you to keep paying your dues. Otherwise will try and have you fired. Good Day.

 

[ualdriver]

You know, I have been reading the ALPA bashers, particularly Joe Merchant blame this recent wrinkle on ALPA, but let me ask you this....isn't this just plain old competition between companies providing a service? Let me explain.

For example, United and Delta fly mainline flights between ORD and ATL with mainline aircraft. Is it ALPA's fault that it "allows" such competition between two ALPA carriers? How about when you have an undercutting non-union carrier like Virgin America competing against UAL out of SFO. Is that ALPA's fault too?

Look, we all have to deal with competition, including competition from crappy, undercutting airlines. That unfortunately is part of the biz. Regional airlines are no different. The regionals are not special. You're going to have to compete against POS carriers just like the mainline, and unfortunately you're going to sustain some wounds. If you don't like the competition, get a government job.

Guys like Joe are just scared because that 18 day off a month, 6 figure job that they have been bragging about on this very forum are now at risk. Just as the mainline guys have had to take significant pay cuts in order to compete with the low cost competition like Frontier, Valujet, JetBlue, etc., unfortunately I think RJ guys, in particular guys like Joe who make out sized salaries are going to start feeling some pain, and they need someome to blame.

Sorry Joe, it isn't ALPA hurting you. It is the same low ball, undercutting airlines that we have had to deal with particularly painfully in the past 15 years that are hurting you. If anyone at ASA needs to take a hit, it is guys like you, not a $20K/year F/O.

 

[CX880]

You know, I have been reading the ALPA bashers, particularly Joe Merchant blame this recent wrinkle on ALPA, but let me ask you this....isn't this just plain old competition between companies providing a service? Let me explain.

For example, United and Delta fly mainline flights between ORD and ATL with mainline aircraft. Is it ALPA's fault that it "allows" such competition between two ALPA carriers? How about when you have an undercutting non-union carrier like Virgin America competing against UAL out of SFO. Is that ALPA's fault too?

Look, we all have to deal with competition, including competition from crappy, undercutting airlines. That unfortunately is part of the biz. Regional airlines are no different. The regionals are not special. You're going to have to compete against POS carriers just like the mainline, and unfortunately you're going to sustain some wounds. If you don't like the competition, get a government job.

Guys like Joe are just scared because that 18 day off a month, 6 figure job that they have been bragging about on this very forum are now at risk. Just as the mainline guys have had to take significant pay cuts in order to compete with the low cost competition like Frontier, Valujet, JetBlue, etc., unfortunately I think RJ guys, in particular guys like Joe who make out sized salaries are going to start feeling some pain, and they need someome to blame.

Sorry Joe, it isn't ALPA hurting you. It is the same low ball, undercutting airlines that we have had to deal with particularly painfully in the past 15 years that are hurting you. If anyone at ASA needs to take a hit, it is guys like you, not a $20K/year F/O.

They're saying ALPA created Gojets.

 

[rene]

Joe,

Any reason why Delta would be placing more than one Regional per hub? Can you think of a reason?


Bye Bye---General Lee

Its an easy answer. The same answer to the question. Why do they have 100 bus companies in London? So no one company has too much leverage? It is also the same reason no one regional airline controls all the gorund handling. Mesaba made this point loud and clear during the NWA bankrupcy when they almost shut down MSP and DTW, and it is why Delta started Regional Elite...... How much less are you willing to work for?

 

[nerjdriver]

I'm sick over the fact that we are shrinking again and we have no attrition. It's kind of hard to get on with a career airline without turbine PIC. That may change in a few years, but you'll forgive me if I worry about being trapped at the next Comair.

It's okay. We'll just block any JCBA proposal to force the SLI to never happen.

Whoops!

 

[BoilerUP]

They're saying ALPA created Gojets.

Anybody who says that wrong...and a fool and a moron who doesn't know the backstory of Hulas, TSA, TSA ALPA contract neogitations, APA scope, etc etc.

 

[WayBack]

You know, I have been reading the ALPA bashers, particularly Joe Merchant blame this recent wrinkle on ALPA, but let me ask you this....isn't this just plain old competition between companies providing a service? Let me explain.

For example, United and Delta fly mainline flights between ORD and ATL with mainline aircraft. Is it ALPA's fault that it "allows" such competition between two ALPA carriers? How about when you have an undercutting non-union carrier like Virgin America competing against UAL out of SFO. Is that ALPA's fault too?

Look, we all have to deal with competition, including competition from crappy, undercutting airlines. That unfortunately is part of the biz. Regional airlines are no different. The regionals are not special. You're going to have to compete against POS carriers just like the mainline, and unfortunately you're going to sustain some wounds. If you don't like the competition, get a government job.

Guys like Joe are just scared because that 18 day off a month, 6 figure job that they have been bragging about on this very forum are now at risk. Just as the mainline guys have had to take significant pay cuts in order to compete with the low cost competition like Frontier, Valujet, JetBlue, etc., unfortunately I think RJ guys, in particular guys like Joe who make out sized salaries are going to start feeling some pain, and they need someome to blame.

Sorry Joe, it isn't ALPA hurting you. It is the same low ball, undercutting airlines that we have had to deal with particularly painfully in the past 15 years that are hurting you. If anyone at ASA needs to take a hit, it is guys like you, not a $20K/year F/O.

I'll keep it short and sweet.
It's ALPA representing both the mainline and regional's....those same regional's who are flying mainline routes (3-4 hour legs shouldn't be done in an RJ) for cheaper wages than mainline pilots. On top of it ALPA is representing the regionals who are undercutting each other to do the flying for cheaper.
As long as the regionals keep flying bigger and bigger airplanes, they're going to be putting themselves out of jobs at the mainlines.
Yet ALPA (nationals and local) does nothing to stop the larger air frames from coming to the regional property.