Competitive at SWA: ME Piston VS SE Tur

[intel33]

Competitive at SWA: ME Piston vs SE Turbine

I am currently flying a Cessna 402 but considering a Caravan job. Both are single pilot and have no potential for advancement.

I am concerned about how either job is viewed as “career enhancing” or not in general and specifically at Southwest Airlines.

I was flying King Airs in the Army, but like many people, I had to take a step back when I got out. I have remained flying when many have not, but want to make the best of what I can.

The Caravan job pays slightly better for considerably less work (and flight time).

Any opinions?

 

[swaforme]

Do you otherwise already meet the min requirments for SWA? Do you have more than 1000 PIC turbine. If so then I would probably take the job you like best. Then, I would continue the search for a job that will make you better qualified.

 

[ivauir]

Just to elaborate on the previous poster's comments - the 1000 turbine PIC is a firm requirement and single engine does count. If you do not meet this requirement by a comfortable margin I'd go with the 'van.

Otherwise who knows? The new competative criterea are shrouded in mystery and I think the differance between ME recip and SE turbine is splitting hairs: consider asking a ME turbine operator which they'd rather see you get.

Good luck and congrats on having a choice of jobs in this environment.

 

[embdrvr]

SWA seems to hire from a very broad group of applicants. I have several friends that have been fortunate enough to have been hired. I was all set to follow them and this type rating deal got reinstated. No sour grapes. They have every right to set the bar where they want it.
I would do whatver it takes to meet all the requirements ASAP. Keep in mind they interview every qualified applicant although you might be waiting a while they will eventually get you in. SWA does not seem as judgmental for lack of a better word than other airlines. Guys get hired there that have been flying a twin otter as well as guys with F-18 time. I think they really hire a personality first and foremost. Everyone has a type and 1000PIC turbine so they know how to fly. 73's are not a difficult airplane. They do a lot of stuff right at SWA.
I gotta get off the PC. I keep blabbering and pretty soon I'm gonna spend $7K on a type rating.

 

[chase]

Choices

Priority. PIC over quality of life. If this is met (which it sounds like it is if you flew fixed wing in the Army) then moving to a slightly bigger airplane shows progression. Assuming you're leaving with a good rep at your current employer, moving to other aircraft isn't considered anything other than the normal flow for folks trying to get to bigger, diverse aircraft. Sounds like it would be better anyway to get more pay & better living conditions. The less flying time isn't a big concern if you have plenty (2500+, just my number, not SWA's) of hours. Hope that helps. Good luck,

 

[enigma]

Just to elaborate on the previous poster's comments - the 1000 turbine PIC is a firm requirement and single engine does count.

I confess to be shooting from the hip; but if memory serves from the last time this came up, Caravan time is NOT counted towards single engine turbine time. SE time counts, if it's A7, F16, etc. Obviously there's a big difference between a single engine F16 and a single engine cessna. I can't comment on the original posters situation, but in general a civilian pilot with only C208 time will be laughed out of town. I only post this so that the quoted post doesn't give some civilian, C208 only, pilot the idea that SWA is right around the corner.

good luck,
enigma

 

[WhiteCloud]

in general a civilian pilot with only C208 time will be laughed out of town.

I don't think SWA "laughs C208 pilots out of town". Lots of good operational experience there and they know how to handle turbine engines.

 

[enigma]

I don't think SWA "laughs C208 pilots out of town". Lots of good operational experience there and they know how to handle turbine engines.

OK, Ziggy, I shouldn't have used that phrase. But, I am almost positive that this issue has been discussed here previously, and the consensus was that someone with only caravan time did not qualify for SWA.

As to your contention that a Caravan offers good operational experience and the knowledge of operating a turbine engine,,,,,
I don't know any easy way to say this, but operating a turbine engine is much easier that operating a high powered recip.

The reason airlines started looking for turbine experience was not because the engines are hard to operate, it was because of the airframes that the turbine engines were installed on. Jets were installed on high speed/high altitude airframes, and turboprops were installed on high performance multi engine airframes. If a pilot had jet experience, he most likely had proven that he could operate in a fast moving environment, even if the airframe was a single engine airframe. I'm certain that a F16 pilot operates in fast paced, critical environment. If the airframe was powered by turbines driving props, it was quite possibly a Gulfstream1, P3, C130, etc, airframes that while not exactly capable of being "fast movers", were obviously large, requiring a multi person crew, and very complex. BTW, I have no Electra/P3 time, but I understand that the bird is actually quite fast. Maybe faster than most Citations.

On the other hand, the C208 offers non of those characteristics. I do not mean to disparage a person who flys an Caravan. One of the best pilots I know used to fly one. Matter of absolute fact, I would be very proud to fly one if the job payed enough
But, If ones only "turbine" experience is a Caravan, that pilot has had no introduction to: high altitude ops(and pressurization), high speed ops, complex aircraft systems, (sorry but a singel pt6 isn't really a complex system), etc.

Once again, I made my original reply because another writer may have given the implication that having a thousand hours of C208 time might give one a chance at SWA. I only want to protect a hopeful caravan pilot from unrealistic expectations, and remind them that the single engine wording in the SWA qualifications is there so as to not disqualify single engine, single seat fighter pilots.

regards,
enigma

 

[WhiteCloud]

I made my original reply because another writer may have given the implication that having a thousand hours of C208 time might give one a chance at SWA. I only want to protect a hopeful caravan pilot from unrealistic expectations, and remind them that the single engine wording in the SWA qualifications is there so as to not disqualify single engine, single seat fighter pilots.

regards,
enigma

That's cool. I've never flown a Caravan but I do know the daily work experience of a typical 135 freight pilot makes for a very strong Regional airline candidate. Lots of instrument approaches, single pilot into a variety of locations. It might not be, in of itself, qualifying for SWA but it's certainly relevant experience if part of a total package.

 

[ivauir]

Thanks Enigma!

I agree with Enigma: 1000 hours of PIC in the 'van would probably not be enough to be taken seriously (although it technically meets the min). However, I am pretty darn sure it actually counts - if they only wanted this to help single seat fighter types they would have specified jet instead of turbine. For a pilot with a good a diverse background getting some 208 time to finish off the 1000 hour PIC requirement IS an option.
But Enigma is spot on - don't try to build a career based on 208 time alone. That is not the impression I wanted to make, and thanks for the correction.

 

[wil]

In this competitive environment if it's not military time it will probably have to be 121 PIC time. Good luck-

 

[Swerpipe]

TOTALLY agree!!!

In this competitive environment if it's not military time it will probably have to be 121 PIC time. Good luck-

In this competitive environment you'll probably need 121 PIC time. Part 135 guys are probably not going to cut the mustard for the following reasons:
1)Part 135 pilots are, in general, pretty lousy sticks. Mainly because they do not attend the fine schools or military training than other awesome pilots do. They cheat their way through all their ratings and usually cut corners. They are so used to flying passengers that could complain about their flying that they no longer care and often land really hard to see if they can piss them off. After a hard landing they often will say, "Now, eat that! you(*@&(*&"

2)Part 135 pilots are not good with customer service. They are usually so bitter than they get their frustations on the customers. We have flight attendants to do that for us, Ha Ha.

3)Part 135 pilots since they do not have dispatchers, ramp agents, flight attendants, cleaning crew etc.. or an engineering team, they have to file the flight plans, walk the PAX to the aircraft, deal with the FBO logitics, clean the aircraft, do the fuel planning, check the aircraft performance, kiss the PAX %!$%ER and deal with any of their ^%!#(*, load and unload their bags, make sure that they will have access to the their cars. All this BS makes them very bitter and angry which shows in their lousy service

4)Part 135 work is extremely easy compared to military missions or part 121 lines. I mean what is so great about going to airports that nobody ever goes to (like Telluride, Aspen, Calexico, Kayenta), in remote places or that you are not familiar with. It's much better to fly lines you are familiar with or missions you have rehearsed to death. Do you know how hard is to taxi in KDFW, KLAX, KDEN, KPHX, KORD, KJFK???? If you were Part 121 you would know, really!

In summary, I recommend all the Part 135 folks to come over to the real pilots' world and work Part 121. You'll become a better stick, you'll earn the respect of all pilots: Part 135, Part 121, Part 91 and specially military. Most importantly, you'll have a chance to work for SWA!!!!!

The expert...

 

[amfteamster]

This is funny!

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

well one things funny and it is captain 'pipe'. that has to be one of the most insulting post i have read in a long time. what a complete moron. i guess he thinks everyone who is not flying 121 or military is a lousy pilot. and i am guessing he flies neither 121 or military so that leaves the last one!!! boy, it takes all kinds....

 

[WhiteCloud]

well one things funny and it is captain 'pipe'.

ROTFLMAO. ziggy1 (91,135,121, military spouse)

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

Fact..
The 1000 PIC Turbine is met anytime you were operating as PIC of a Turbine aircraft..

It does not say anything nor have i heard anyone discussing anything with regard to single versus multi or fighter versus C-208..

1000 PIC turbine in anything counts...

And yes..There are a number of C-208 drivers that have been hired here..

Mike

 

[46Driver]

When you get down to the fine print, I believe that "1000 PIC turbine in anything counts" is incorrect - I know all too well that Southwest specifically excludes turbine helicopter time.

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

I stand corrected due to the fact that i didnt include the rotory wing issue in my post..

Since we were clearly talking fixed wing aircraft in the previous posts I thought that it was understood we were still talking fixed wing..

Mike..

 

[enigma]

When you get down to the fine print, I believe that "1000 PIC turbine in anything counts" is incorrect - I know all too well that Southwest specifically excludes turbine helicopter time.

Great point 46driver. The absolute best Captain I ever flew with was a Navy trained helo pilot, the next best is an AF helo/C130 pilot. If SWA excludes their helo time, it doesn't make sense to include single pilot, low performance, low altitude, low speed, low complexity Caravan time.

Mike, You are obviously the man as far as SWA info. I do not doubt you if you say that there are C 208 drivers at SWA, but I have to ask this: was the Caravan their only turbine experience and if so, what percentage of SWA new hires they comprise?

Remember, my answer was not intended to denigrate C208 pilots, only to try and help a bunch of Caravan drivers from developing unrealistic expectations. You may know of one onehundreth of one percent of your fellow pilots who came straight from Caravans, but I have a friend (SWA Captain who interviews and has for around ten years, who must remain nameless) who told me a long time ago that taking job flying caravans with Martinaire would not help me get on with SWA because the Caravan time was essentially worthless. At the time, I was a fairly high time Lear FO, who was a little short on turbine PIC.

Once again, I'm just trying to remain realistic.

regards,
enigma

 

[MLBWINGBORN]

SWerpipe..

After having read your lengthy post several times, ive decided that it is either a very poor attempt at humor or nothing more than flame bait..

If its the latter then you got me..You made me sit up and take notice and really pissed me off..

It has been my personal experience that the best pilots, generally with very few exceptons, have been those with great attitudes..

Yours is one that clearly needs some adjustment..

If your post was one of attempted humor..

While developing your super human skills as a poster..It may be better next time to attempt a single bound over the family dog house as opposed to the nearest verbally tall building in public..

Its not as embarrassing when you fall flat on your a$$..

Mike