Combining the seniority lists

[FlyDeltasJets]

Surplus,

Thanks for the post. First of all, let it be said that the attitudes that you condemned did not come from me. I agree that discrimination exists based on airplane size, and I have gone out of my way not to perpetuate that. As far as I am concerned, we are all fellow aviators, with a common foe. I hope that my posts have accurately illustrated this sentiment.

As long as we are on the topic, I would like to point out that the animosity flows in both directions. We have been called egotistical, "Double-breasted a$$holes", one of our pilot has recently been denied a seat on a comair airplane, and members of your group have publicly expressed glee at the prospect of my upcoming furlough. Does this represent the majority of your pilots? Of course not. I hope (and believe) that you realize that the attitudes you have encountered do not represent the majority of us. By the way, the Midway comment that our guy made was asinine, and represented the type of opinion that got us into this mess.

As I said earlier, I will not get into a seniority debate with you. I have enjoyed our discussions, and don't want to see them degrade. You will not convince me, and I will not convince you, so there is no use even trying. But let me assure you that my opinion that a staple is just is not based on any prejudices towards you or your pilot group. It is simply based on what I believe is appropriate based on career expectations, w-2's, etc. I believe a staple to be fair, and not a windfall for either group. I am certain that you will not agree, and I'd be kind of dissappointed if you did! I think that you will agree, however, that we should keep our discussion focused on less contentious issues, like religion, politics, or abortion!

Your posts are too long! I get to talking about one of your points, then forget your next one! Don't get me wrong, I don't want you to shorten them, I'm just complaining because it was the first thing I learned in flight training. I enjoy your posts, and appreciate the thought you put into them.

By the way, I only count 15 pages in the scope section of my contract. (Just wanted to prove I was paying attention! Always have to be wary of a test hidden in people's posts!)

You brought up an argument that has been floating around for a while, that of Comair's profitability. That argument gets so many people heated up, and I think it is pretty funny. Some Delta guys rant on and on about how comair owed its success to us, and comair guys say the same thing about Delta. The fact is, they are both right. It is a mutually beneficial relationship for both airlines. I make no argument that comair has always been a successful airline, and I congratulate you on helping to make it that way. I also know that you would be equally successful had we not purchased you. I will readily accept that many did not want to be bought by Delta, but I think that you need to admit that many of you did. You stated that you were not all "thirsting to be on our seniority list pre-acquisition" and you still aren't. While I am sure that some of you don't want to be on our list, I would venture to say that many, if not most, of your pilot group does. I don't know that for a fact, but based on my experiences as a "regional" pilot, the amount of applications we have, conversations I have with friends at comair, and the amount of people who have already given up CMR numbers to come to DAL, I am pretty sure that I am correct. Of course, neither of us knows for sure, but I think that you are understating the desires of some of your members to be a part of our list. Perhaps I am wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

I think that you are overestimating the effect of a successful PID request. I disagree that it would have prevented a strike, as we gave management no indication that we would not support you. Do you honestly believe that they thought we would fly struck work? I am pretty sure that despite our bickering, management did not assume we were willing to scab and fly your routes.

You stated that the rjdc would not have sued, as the evidence necessary to prove unfair rep. would not have existed. Yet in earlier posts, you said the main focus of the rjdc was unfair rep. resulting from our scope clause. I do agree that they underestimated your resolve, and I congratulate you on a fight well fought. You guys certainly helped raise the bar, and I don't think enough people give you the credit you deserve. You certainly impressed me.

You believe that the fact that our MEC's would meet and confer would have eliminated the need for our "predatory scope". I disagree. I believe that our negotiators were sent to the table with clear instructions from our pilot group: get strong scope! It may not be the most important issue to our group, but it is one of them. I assure you, it will be an even higher priority come the next contract.


Listen, I do not disagree that the PID should have been granted. I have never argued against it, and I fully support your right to sue about it. (you know what parts of the suit I don't support!) I just don't see it as the magic elixer that you do. As a matter of fact, the methods used to merge the lists probably would have led to even more animosity. I don't recall too many seniority integrations that resulted in happy pilot groups.

I am, however, willing to concede that I may be wrong. I don't know if the PID would have helped. You seem to think that it would. You may be right. As of now, neither of us can be sure. It is interesting to speculate, however.

You seem to think that because I don't think onelist is possible, I have given up on a solution. Quite the opposite. In fact, that is the reason for this thread, to hear ideas about how we could achieve our goals. I don't think that onelist will ever occur. That does not mean that I would not be willing to try, given a realistic strategy. I have never advocated giving up, nor will I.

 

[tbkane]

Fly Delta Jets,

I just wanted to post conformation from the junior pilots on the list. I to and everyone I know would not accept anything but a staple.

Before I get flamebated, I want to say I spent four years at ASA and earned my position on furlough. I do not find it fair that one of my fo's could possibly become senior to me, when I earned the job at DAL, and now am really earning it on furlough, while they are flying, and then move in senior to me so that I could be furloughed again!

One list could happen, but I would rather leave ALPA than lose senority.

 

[surplus1]

It's too long again. Shucks.

TO: FlyDeltaJets,

Thank you for the excellent response. Yes, your posts do indicate your personal sentiments as well as your commitment. I can see that the attitudes I referenced do not come from you. That is why I devote so much energy to communicating with you. I realize we don't agree on some of the issues nor on some of my ideas re solutions. That's not a problem. We are engaged in a dialogue and that is what's important. Agreement can never be achieved without the exchange of ideas. If this type of dialogue could take place between our leaders, there might be a possibility of reaching common ground. No matter how difficult, I think it would be better than what we have done so far and are doing now (Ref. the leaders).

I agree there is animosity in both directions. I don't think it would be productive to debate whether the chicken or the egg came first, so I won't go there. I also agree that the references I made do NOT apply to ALL Delta pilots by a long shot. I believe the majority of Delta pilots are just aviators and nice people. I think the same of the majority of Comair pilots. I also agree that both properties contain an "a**hole factor" that is the same percentage wise (in all airlines). The recent JS incident you mentioned is demonstrative of that. I tried to point out that my assessment of attitudes came from D-pilots in positions of leadership and also from mainline pilots at other airlines (also in leadership positions) and union officials (pilots all) resident in the beltway offices. As I see it, those folks are the "fly in the ointment". If I knew you personally I could give you many direct examples that I would never post on a public board. That IS what got us into this mess.

I agree that we shouldn't get into a p***ing contest over seniority. I also think that you have assumed incorrectly that I would want something that you could not live with. The problem is semantics and the devil is in the details. A huge gap in our thinking does not exist. How we define "staple" is the bridge that can span the misunderstanding.

I'll just say this: In my idea of how it might be done (if it happened tomorrow), not a single Delta pilot on your list today would lose even one number or any of the rights associated with that number that he/she has today. At the same time, not a single pilot on the Comair list today would lose any of the rights that he/she has today. There would be no "flush" ever; no one on either side would forfeit the future vacancy bidding rights that he/she has today on the respective property. Not a single soul would be displaced unless he/she voluntarily chose to be. Longevity for Section 3 pay would survive, unless the pilot voluntarily bid across lines, i.e., CMR/ASA to DAL or DAL to ASA/CMR.

For practical purposes, I would define my ideas as a "protected staple". While we do not agree 100%, we may be a lot closer than you may have guessed. There are a few unmentioned points that I have not included because I think they would cloud the issue. I hope you don't find my position "disappointing" in the context of your presumption.

I couldn't agree more that my posts are too long. I try desperately to shorten them but alas, verbosity is one of my salient faults. What my own pilot group says about it is a lot more severe than your comments. I enjoy your posts and ideas as well.

Ha! You broke the code AND you passed the scope test too (15 pages it is). I knew there was a smart RD pilot somewhere. I'm glad I discovered you for the search as been fatiguing. (LOL)

Reference the profitability discussion, I agree that the relationship pre-acquisition was both symbiotic and mutually beneficial. In the years when Delta was profitable, you made many more $$ than we did. Quite natural due to your much greater size. (Excluding the strike) Comair has been profitable in all but one of its 25 years of existence. The rate of return on investment has been triple that of Delta. For such a small company, the annual net was truly amazing. As far as satisfaction with the purchase, on the day it came down nearly 4000 people were literally in tears. I was there. Of course, they are not all pilots and there were exceptions (mostly in management positions). Given the golden parachutes that senior management so generously awarded themselves a mere three months before Delta's proffer it is not at all surprising that their eyes were less than teary.

To really understand what I meant about not "thirsting to be on your list" you would also have to understand the demographics of our pilot group. With very high growth rates we have been hiring a lot of new pilots (as you well know). While the rate of attrition was exceptionally low (for a "regional"), the influx of new people was simultaneously quite high. At times the list literally doubled in only 5 years. For a time, a high percentage of the new hires were typical of most regional pilots, i.e., their first real flying job. I would venture that 100% of that group came to CMR with the idea of moving on to a "real airline" as soon as they could. At other times our "new hires" were mostly recycled airline pilots (like myself) and military pilots. Quite similar to the people you hire.

There was however another "difference" at Comair that I think is absent in a majority of regional airlines. It is also true that I have never met a single mainline pilot willingly ready to acknowledge its reality. Comair had a "culture" of its own. While it was naturally evolving, that culture nevertheless existed. It takes on the average, about three years for a non-recycled new hire to be assimilated and for him to recognize and become a part of that culture. To figure out that Comair, though small, was in fact a "real airline". Once that process of assimilation was completed, the pilots "thirst to move on" waned significantly in a majority of cases. He changed, became a member of the team and the thirst to travel became a desire to grow and build something special. We used to call it affectionately "The Best Little Airline in America". When Delta, Inc. coerced us into putting your livery on our jets, there were few happy pilots. We had an identity of our own and we did not want it to be buried in a hail of Widgets. While our history pales by comparison with that of TWA, I suspect they felt much the same as we did when they first had to fly something with double A on the tail.

Of course, there were still people that left in search of more money, but when a regional airline has an attrition rate (during a hiring boom like the recent past) of less than 7%, it is pretty safe to say what I said.

Continue to Part II

 

[surplus1]

Part II To: FlyDeltaJets

(Continued)

Following the purchase, there WAS a change and a big one. Reality today is quite different from yesterday. The truth is the airline known as Comair, ceased to exist in the year 2000 on the day the transaction was closed. There IS no more Comair. It is just a piece of paper. There is no longer any reason for the younger pilots (now 1/2 or more of the list) to stay at Comair. There is NO such thing as Comair any more. I recognize that reality and I think most Comair pilots do also. More often than not, that is why RC names increasingly appear on foreign lists. (Don't you just love nostalgia?)

Based on today, I did understate the desires of folks to leave. Since I'm a yesterday person (as indicated by my handle), I acknowledge that I sometimes live with the memories when it comes to this sort of thing and not in real time.

Maybe I am wrong about the impact of a successful PID. Even I know that I'm not perfect. With respect to the strike and management's assessment, I did NOT mean they thought you would fly struck work. No one, that I am aware of, believed that. No one, including management ever thought you would scab. However, management did know that you would not rise up and stand shoulder to shoulder in defense of our objectives; you didn't. And, management did know that the ALPA level of support would be no more than legally required; it wasn't. Management was right in both cases.

Management did know what they were being told by leaders in the national union (ironically we didn't) during their private meetings with those leaders. And yes, such meetings did take place without the knowledge or consent of the Comair MEC, repeatedly both before and during the negotiations. Among the participants was the sitting President of the ALPA.

Perhaps I am wrong, but I still believe that had we had your unqualified support and that of the ALPA, the outcome would have been different and the strike might have been avoided. FDJ, I know that you (and most of your peers) have no idea of the intensity of the pressure to "cave in" that was placed on our MEC and our negotiating committee by the National union. I'll ask one question to illustrate. How many Delta pilots would you guess are aware of the fact that while the Comair MEC was asking Comair pilots to vote against a Company proposal, the Executive Administrator of the ALPA was simultaneously sending individual mailgrams to every Comair pilot encouraging them to accept the Company's offer (while our pilots were walking the line)? Would you call that "support" of our efforts? Would that behavior fly at Delta itself? Well, it didn't at Comair. We voted no by margins that staggered the imagination of both ALPA and the Company; not once but twice. You don't have to believe me, FDJ. Find out for yourself.

Fortunately for me, I no longer have to be "politically correct". The truth needs to be aired. There is no other way to remove the odor of what goes on in DC. I've grown tired of pretending that a dead carcass doesn't smell. It reeks.

With respect to the RJDC and the suit, there is no inconsistency or conflict in what I said. I believe that the results of a successful PID would have eliminated the DFR issues and the Scope issues simultaneously, thus removing most allegations of the suit. IMO, with a successful PID, Delta pilots (now joined with CMR pilots) would have access to the RJ flying in the Delta System, thus eliminating the need for scope directed against the subsidiaries. We would have been joined together on scope against outsourcing instead.

I do not believe that our MEC's would "meet and confer" post successful PID. I believe our MEC's would be merged, i.e., one and the same and for real (not the c**p that's going on at CAL). One MEC, one decision, end of conflict. The instructions to your negotiators would have changed and new instruction issued, with the full agreement and consent of Delta pilots (all of "us"). Strong Scope by all means; just aimed in the right direction.
I don't seek a "magic elixir". What I seek is a unified pilot group encompassing the Delta System that includes DAL and the two subsidiaries that are already a defacto part of ONE Company.

I don't want to deal with corporate shell games and make-believe separate airlines. We are one in every way and should stop pretending that we are not. The purpose of Scope is to keep jobs IN the Company. We have only ONE Company and it is Delta Air Lines. Calling it by three different names doesn't change that. ASA and Comair are today no less fictitious than the infamous Enron subsidiaries. Scope IN the Delta flying (which includes ASA and Comair). Scope out the contract flying (all of it). In the process, cease and desist from imposing economic obstacles that would force the Company to fight for survival. Don't attempt to force a corporate merger.

If ASA and Comair were NOT wholly owned subsidiaries, then I would expect to be scoped out. Like you, I disagree with outsourcing and I think we should close the door that we opened to allow it. I just don't think that a wholly owned subsidiary, whose revenue in total goes to the same corporate entity, is outsourcing. It is not, unless we choose to make it so for ulterior motives. Making it so, plays directly into the hands of management. That's what they want and we are giving it to them while we fight among ourselves over which shell hides the pea. That's their game, we're playing it by their rules and right now they are winning it hands down, thanks to our own folly.

Finally, the only thing that generates unhappiness in mergers among pilots, is the abrogation of somebody's seniority. Eliminate that (which I believe my concepts do) and the unhappiness will die on all sides of the vine. It's a simple principle. The fact that we haven't done it before is OUR fault. We should stop the excuses; stop inventing obstacles and get on with the show.

I know I don't necessarily have the best idea, the only idea or the perfect idea but I do have an idea. Anyone else is more than welcome to come up with a better solution. I don't necessarily want something that I thought of, I just want something that works. Right now both the union and the pilot groups are disfunctional with respect to this issue. All the scope in the world will not result in the disappearance of the small jets. How much they proliferate and how big they get will be dictated by market forces, not pilots. If we as pilots don't get on the wagon we will simply be left behind in the dust.

I'm glad you haven't given up. I haven't either. And no, I don't want to destroy ALPA. I want to RESTORE ALPA to what it is supposed to be. If that means new leaders in Washington, then good riddance to the one's we have now. I want men of vision to replace stagnant politicians who devote more energy to maintaining or enhancing their power than representing their constituents.

Disclaimer: The opinions expressed in this post are my own personal opinions. I am not a spokesperson for the RJDC or any other organization. My posts are not directed, approved or controlled by the RDJC or any other organization including the Comair MEC. I receive no direct input from the RJDC or any of its principals, nor from the CMRMEC and I have no knowledge as to whether the RJDC or the CMRMEC agrees or disagrees with any opinions expressed in this or any other of my posts. Surplus1

 

[surplus1]

BTW, ALPA spent quite a bit of money courting APA membership and was rejected. Although I am an inactive member of ALPA, I don't favor reaffliating with them.

I'm not unhappy about that. Out of curiousity, do you think it was realted to the timing of their effort coinciding with the TWA merger or simply that you all prefer to do your own thing?

Even as an opener, AMR didn't even acknowledge the APA's proposal for combined companies. They're obviously not interested in even discussing it in any form.

Of course they weren't interersted. Not so sure if that means "in any form" or in the form that you proposed. Time will tell.

I can't help but notice you didn't touch on the impact your proposal would have (if accepted) on the Eagle pilots. Any reason? And please, spare me the from the idea that you were doing it for their benefit.

I'm not throwing rocks, just calling your bluff. You still haven't given me any reason to believe you have any realistic plan whatsoever.

That's OK, I'm not bothered. Since we're not in a poker game I don't have to show no matter how often you call. I choose not to.

Enough. It's been an interesting discussion, but not enlightening.

Sorry you're not satisfied. I don't worry too much about the enlightening part. Guess that's becasue on this issue there haven't been many lights in the heads of mainline pilots for a very long time. Your failure to be enlightened is the rule, not the exception. Just the same, I'd rather you were Navy than USAF with that attitude. I take that back, you sound more like Marine. Sorry Navy.

I do wish it were not so, but I guess you just can't please all of the people all of the time.

Standing by for incoming.

On another subject. How'd you like the B-1? I sure looks good and it fascinates me. Fun to fly?

 

[Draginass]

Surplus -
As far as reaffilitation with ALPA, maybe something to do with the merger, but I think mostly wanting not to lose any control to a national organization, plus maybe not want dues increases with ALPA. In short, I don't see ALPA being a significant benefit vs. the loss of full autonomy and additional costs.

Since AMR failed to even acknowledge the combining offer, much less even counter, I assume they're not interested. As far as what AE guys thought of concept, you'll have to ask some of them. If it was 18 months ago, I'd bet they be very receptive.

B-1? Very fast. Easy to fly, but unforgiving to mishandling. Outstanding bomb load and combat capability. Very complex systemwise with consequent high maintenance.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus -
As far as reaffilitation with ALPA, maybe something to do with the merger, but I think mostly wanting not to lose any control to a national organization, plus maybe not want dues increases with ALPA. In short, I don't see ALPA being a significant benefit vs. the loss of full autonomy and additional costs.

I sure don't blame you on the loss of autonomy question. AA is big enought to throw its weight around, but not big enough to out-vote a coalition. I think autonomy is what keeps SWAPA out of ALPA too. For an airline their size, they would lose completely any real voice in their own affairs. That I know first hand.

B-1? Very fast. Easy to fly, but unforgiving to mishandling. Outstanding bomb load and combat capability. Very complex systemwise with consequent high maintenance.

Sort of what I expected you'd say. I envy you. By coincidence, you and I have flown some of the same hardware, but when I was in USAF the B-1 or anything like it did not exist. I used to drool over the B-58 back when, but never got near it.

Take care.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Wow.

Yes, I did read it all. Yes, I did learn something, mostly that I don't know as much about this issue as I thought I did. Also, that my way of presenting the facts as I knew them only caused further arguement, while Surplus actually has FDJ talking to him like an equal. Surplus, you are my new hero. FDJ, I have new respect and admiration for you, even though I still disagree with a few of your views.

For anyone who says they havn't learned anything by this discussion, I suppose you are entitled to your opinion. Or, perhaps you are just lying to try to make sure no Delta pilot finds out who you are and keeps you from being hired there because of your views.

As for the flying struck work thing, nobody would expect Delta pilots to be scabs. However, since there was so much screaming about Comair's struck work policy on this board, perhaps management would find a way to convince you that it really didn't apply to you. Like they said it wouldn't after we were no longer in existance (but since we are a paper airline, I guess they could say that now, right?).

In any case, I'm now more conviced than ever that the rjdc lawsuit was justified, and the right thing to do, AND that it will result in a better career for ALL ALPA represented pilots. This is just my opinion, and nothing else, so don't try to get me to justify it. Good luck to all. Hopefully, we shall soon see.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

SDD,

Thanks for the compliment. I hope that I have always treated people like equals, not just recently! There have been times that I have argued with people on this board, and some of the discussions got a little nasty. If I got a little aggressive with someone, it was because A.) I disagreed with them AND B.) the tone of the conversation was getting a little rough.

For future reference, if and when I get into another shouting match, it will happen because I got pi$$ed at someone, not because I think I am superior to them!


I know what you mean about the tone of the discussions, however. These are much better. You and surplus know your stuff. The only problem is, you're wrong!

Fly safe.

 

[surplus1]

SDD,

You and surplus know your stuff. The only problem is, you're wrong!

Good one. You actually made me laugh out loud. A little pun helps now and then.

Hope you had a nice Easter.

BTW, are you at Express or holding something better?

 

[skydiverdriver]

I would be willing to admit that we are wrong, as long as you admit that you are arrogant, fair enough? ;-P

Anyway, one thing I'm sure we can agree on, that Delta's tactic of telling us to go home with our tail between our legs didn't work out as predicted. You may disagree with us, and I would probably be dissapointed if you didn't, but you do have to deal with us. I think that if we hadn't filed the rjdc lawsuit, you wouldn't even be talking to us about this, much less doing all the research and hard work that you obviously have put into this.

I see you as a worthy advisary, FDJ. and wish you good luck and high fortune, no matter how all of this shakes out.

SDD

 

[Delta Po Boy]

The thing that I don't understand about the RJDC and a merged seniority list concerns career expectations.

When I was applying to the airlines, I looked at several factors when deciding which airlines to apply to. One of the factors was career expectations. I spoke with friends and studied data and calculated a "rough guess" of where I might be and when (at year X, I will be an F/O on aircraft Y making $Z... When I retire, I will have worked X years for the company, resulting in roughly $Y for my retirement).

I'm assuming the folks at the regionals did the same. They either decided:
1) The regionals would allow them to build enough hours to be hired by Delta.
2) Delta wasn't hiring, so the regionals are the best place for them until Delta start hiring again.
3) they were comfortable with the career expectations when they made their decision (at year X, I will be the F/O on aircraft Y making $Z... When I retire, I will have worked X years for the company, resulting in roughly $Y for my retirement).

Based on this assumption, I have a hard time understanding the rationale behind the notion that a merged/stapled list is a right or an expectation of the RJ pilots.

I know every pilot wants to be maximize pay and quality of life, but I don't think any Comair pilot signed on the dotted line because they expected the seniority list to be merged/stapled and they would soon be flying 767's. Am I way off base here?

 

[skydiverdriver]

One more time for clarity...

A merged list is NOT the goal of the RJDC.

If you don't understand what this means, or why I said it, please look at the numerous posts by Surplus1 on the subject. I don't know why I have to keep saying this, but some people still don't understand.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Mr Boeing,
To answer your questions a different way, just plug in the word TWA pilot where you have Comair pilot, and ask the same questions. Perhaps this will help you some.

 

[Delta Po Boy]

SDD,

You say one list is not a goal of the RJDC, but some of your posts indicate the contrary.

Again, the rjdc lawsuit is misrepresented, and misunderstood. It's not just about onelist...I believe since we kindly asked your MEC to talk about a onelist proposal, and they refused, you should petition your MEC to come to us with a proposal...I totally agree that even if the rjdc gets everything they want, it will NOT, and I repeat, not result in a merger. HOwever, by their bylaws, ALPA is required to do everything in their power to try to get one accomplished. NOw, read that again, they cannot affect a merger, but they are required to try. This is the essense of what the rjdc is suing for. Everyone knows that ALPA cannot make it happen, but their own bylaws require them to TRY...

A couple of observations:

1) By stating "not just about onelist," you imply that onelist is a goal (just not the only goal).

2) You also say "they cannot affect a merger, but they are required to try. That is the essense of what the rjdc is suing for." Again, it seems like a merger is at least a peripheral goal of the RJDC.

The reason you have to state things "one more time for clarity" is because you're not being clear. I did reread your posts and, no I still don't understand. You're sending mixed signals when you include the above excerpts in your posts, yet say the RJDC doesn't want a merged list. Am I wrong?