Combining the seniority lists

[surplus1]

Indirectly, the PID made it possible for the -700's to stay with the subsidiaries. Delta MEC was not about to smash both the PID and our airplane. That would have been a case in court too easy for the subsids to win. Bottom line, we don't care about flying 757's or whatever. We are fighting for OUR jobs and OUR future.

Hope that helps.

Hmmmm. I think we're on the same side of the isssues, but I'm not so sure I agree with your premise.

In your previous post you said

What RJ pilots want is for the illegal bargaining practices of the union to cease. Anyone who belives that onelist is the answer, is wrong. And so is anyone who thinks the PID wasn't a ploy to keep the 70 seater to ourselves-

Three distinct and separate elements in that. I agree with the first one about the bargaining practices.

Re: one list being the answer, it could be wrong or it could be right. It depends on how the combining of the lists is handled. (NO, I'm not refering to doh.) The devil is in the details of how you create a single list.

With respect to the PID being a "ploy" to keep the 70-seater, we don't agree. The PID wasn't a ploy. It was a serious request.

I also don't believe that the PID made it possible to keep the 70-seaters. To the best of my knowledge, the DMEC did NOT change its negotiating postions because of the PID. They simply did not get everything they wanted from the Company. They definitely tried to transfer that equipment to the mainline to be flown by mainline pilots.

While the DMEC did not achieve everything they wanted, they DID succeed in placing a cap on the number of 70-seat aircraft. I happen to know how many of those airplanes my own Company planned to purchase before Delta bought my airline. I assure you it was more than the number allowed by the current Delta pilot contract for BOTH ASA/Comair, by a substantial margin.

I do agree that we are fighting for our jobs and our future. That is what the lawsuit is all about. If the DMEC had succeeded in transfering or eliminating ALL of the 70-seat aircraft it would not have made the lawsuit easier to win, it simply would have made the damages greater than they already are.

In the absence of a change of position by the National union (which I do not see in the offing), the lawsuit is the only thing that currently stands between the protection of our job security and the union's efforts to take it away. If we should lose this lawsuit, they'll have carte blanche to destroy the future of regional pilots and not just at ASA/Comair. That is precisely why they are so angry about the suit. It is also why ALL regional pilots should support it, with their wallets. Lose this one and you may keep the wallet, but there will be nothing in it.

The union's (ALPA) endorsment of the recent APA proposal and the USAir MEC J4J protocol is further evidence of the intent to give the spoils to mainline pilots at the expense of regional pilots. The union, recognizing that it cannot stop the RJ completely has simply moved to plan B, i.e., an attempt to transfer the jets from the regionals to the mainline, ironically without their pilots.

I can't speak for anyone else, but what I want to see is a solution that ensures equity for ALL pilots, not something that favors one group at the expense of the other. It's pretty obvious we aren't going to get that without a struggle. That struggle is already on the brink of all-out war.

 

[trigeek]

Surplus,
While I'm not opposed to a merged list in general, I just don't see it ever becoming a reality. Not because I think the MEC's couldn't come up with an mutually acceptable staple agreement (though I'm sure there would be several lawsuits over it--they seem to go with any list merging), but I don't ever see Delta accepting that.
What motivates Delta to increase its labor cost by making/operating us as one airline? Back in '96 we offered to fly the RJ's at market rates to keep all jets at the mainline. Mangement just laughed. We were too expensive. Hourly rates aside, benefits, retirement, etc. are much high at the mailine. What motivation do we give the bean counters to accept this? We're not talking just pilots here. If they merge the list and start operating as an integrated company, then rampers, F/A's, gate agents, etc. all will expect the same treatment (and rightly so). While we don't negotiate for them, it is a simple fact that Delta will way those associated cost as well.
I just don't see this as a realistic possibility.

 

[Draginass]

Trigeek - We've been down that road several times with Surplus. He won't say what it is, but he's got a TOP SECRET plan to combine companies that won't result in give-backs by anybody, including mainline pilots.

 

[skydiverdriver]

Mr Trigeek,
Did you read mr Surplus's comments before you commented on them? Did you see the part when he says that onelist might NOT be the best solution? I can't understand why reasonably intellegent people can read something and all they see is onelist, which is only part of the problem (or solution, depending on how you look at it).

In any case, you guys had your chance to make an agreement, and refused to talk about it, so now we have to let a judge decide. I hope it works out for you, but I fear it would have been better if you would have spoken to us before we were forced to go to court.

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,
While I'm not opposed to a merged list in general, I just don't see it ever becoming a reality. Not because I think the MEC's couldn't come up with an mutually acceptable staple agreement (though I'm sure there would be several lawsuits over it--they seem to go with any list merging), but I don't ever see Delta accepting that.

With respect to the position of Delta, Inc. we do not disagree. They already took a $500 million strike to avoid compensation parity (that would have cost only about $50 millions over 5 years).

We and ALPA have given them and advantage that they will not relinquish voluntarily without a reason. Unless we can be creative enough to develop a system that is not an economic nightmare for the Company, they will resit.

Even if we can justify the economics, they will still resit due to the leverage they gain by playing us against each other.

We're not talking just pilots here. If they merge the list and start operating as an integrated company, then rampers, F/A's, gate agents, etc. all will expect the same treatment (and rightly so). While we don't negotiate for them, it is a simple fact that Delta will way those associated cost as well.

I would not advocate a merger of the corporations, for the very reasons you outline. I think we can accomplish the equivialent of a single list without a corporate merger.

You are quite right in thinking this is extremely difficult. It may very well be unrealistic. Nevertheless, we need to seek jointly a procedure to which we can mutually agree. Even if we cannot get the Company to accept it, I still think it would be beneficial to both of us.

 

[surplus1]

Trigeek - We've been down that road several times with Surplus. He won't say what it is, but he's got a TOP SECRET plan to combine companies that won't result in give-backs by anybody, including mainline pilots.

Actually Dragin, it is no more top secret than the recent APA proposal.

When APA decides to release the actual proposal (not a press release summary), then I may do the same. Meanwhile I think you already have my equivalent of your press release.

BTW, whay are you guys keeping your own proposal TOP SECRET? Could it be that you don't want the regionals to see the true intent?

 

[Draginass]

BTW, why are you guys keeping your own proposal TOP SECRET? Could it be that you don't want the regionals to see the true intent?

Don't know there Surplus. I think all us majors have a special section in the unions called "Committee for the Screwing of Regional Airline Pilots" whose job it is to think up new and devious ways of making life miserable for you guys. I think it's made up primarily of ex-regional pilots. Ex-mils don't have the depth of knowledge necessary to do a really "major" job of it. True intent? Ah, you've got to read the really tiny little letters printed in invisible ink in the letter delivered by black helicopters.

But seriously, I don't think it was meant to be a complete proposal -- just a "fire for effect" aimed primarily at management. I think it's apparent and logical that AE ALPA leadership is fairly tight in the loop, but I also think it's a lead pipe cinch that anything the two unions come up with jointly will not have nearly enough economic incentive to entice AMR.

If anything, I think a spin off of AE is more likely, but that'd create huge scope/code share problems for AMR as well.

If this was 18 months ago, I'd bet that AE guys would have jumped at a staple, regardless of furture possible furloughes. But, then again, it's an academic exercise, because AMR won't go for it anyway.

Right now, I think APA membership views any proposal concerning Eagle with a shrug. The TWA acquisition and seniority integration has left us with little desire for any more a**-pain like that. Besides, there are other major concerns like the contract talks with AMR. Let's just say the AE thing is not topic numero uno at least among the membership because nobody thinks AMR will go for it. Getting mainline AA busy again, APA pilots back to work, and getting a contract is. Scope and whatever is done with AE are only a part of it.

As far as declassifying you plan/opening proposal, when can we expect to see it in writing from your MEC to DAL ALPA and management?

This is it! This is your big chance to get the jump on AMR and leapfrog DAL ahead with a cost effective, pilot pleasing, management friendly, industry-changing revolution!

Errr, . . . . I mean, what's COMAIR's proposal that Delta will ignore?

 

[skydiverdriver]

Draginass,
It's funny to me that you should say that we don't answer many of your questions, while when we ask you one you treat us like we are paranoid conspiracy theory people or something. Well, no matter what you say, we will continue to use proper arguments, and logic and facts to support our views. I see no reason to try to belittle you or your opinions, even though you always seem to do this to us.

Funny how nobody seems to notice this, but they sure do think that no rjdc supporters answer their questions. Well, at least we are respectful when we try to answer them, even if you don't like the answers we give. And, after talking to us in this manner, you wonder why we chose to fight for our rights?

 

[trainerjet]

Even though I don't have a dog in this fight, I do read with interest, both here and on the ALPA site, the various threads on this and similar subjects---because, who knows, there's a good chance I will have a dog in the fight at some point. I read with interest for information and entertainment. I just wanted to say to Draginass that the line about the "Committee for the Screwing of Regional Airline Pilots" was one of the best yet.

 

[Draginass]

". . . . will not have nearly enough economic incentive . . . . "

Sky, the reason that your arguements are not getting much shrift from many people is that RJDC whiners do not address that phrase. I've enjoyed parry with Surplus on the his "plan," but so far he won't expose it, which leads me to believe there is no plan other than mainline pilots to give concessions or some other non-starter from managements point of view. Regional pilots have almost zero clout and leverage, except for whining the loudest.

This is a hardball business. You can take ALPA to court, but I think that's a dead end, and even if you win, it'll probably won't result in any realistic change.

Show me the money.