Combining the seniority lists

[skydiverdriver]

Did you read mr Surplus's posts like I asked you to? Again, the deal is that we want ALPA to treat us like they would any other airline. They are required, by their own bylaws to TRY, and again I say TRY to affect a merger. This is designed to protect the pilots at both carriers. If they actually make a merger happen, I will be very suprized. However, if they try, and again I say TRY, and it doesn't happen, they will have fufilled their obligation and there would no longer be a lawsuit.

Does this make more sense? There are also other points to consider, and I would suggest you read the entire lawsuit at rjdefense.com. Please write to the email address provided there if you have any questions. Other items include mainline scope, and this is a hot topic at both airlines. If this still doesn't make sense to you, again I would ask you to read the recent posts by surplus1. Thanks.

 

[Braniff]

Write RJDC for answers?

Surely you jest.

RJDC is nothing more than thought guerillas (not GOR-illas). They pop up at various websites, make OUTRAGEOUS claims and spout half truths.

When you put a little pressure on them or ask direct questions, they're NEVER answered. In fact, they'd rather further distort the truth and feebily attempt to revise history to attempt to prove their points.

RJDC is just an annoying joke -- more or less the senior guys using the junior pilots lack of historical reference to pad their own pockets. Prove me wrong on this account, I challenge you.

I thought so.

Lots of financial donations, no results. I'd keep my reciept and "ax" for a refund.

Braniff

 

[skydiverdriver]

They meaning who? I don't think you have ever spoken to any of the primary rjdc people, but perhaps someone that agrees with their cause.

However, Braniff, you always make me laugh. Keep up the good work.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Surplus,

To answer your kind question, I actually had a pretty horrible Easter! The food was good, it was nice being with the family, and the weather was great. But all I could think about was the next day, when I had to turn in my Delta ID. Hardest thing I have ever done. I know that others on this board know what I mean.

I also know that I will survive and even prosper in whatever my next venture might be. I know that I will have a job waiting for me when things improve, and I hope and pray that we win the grievance and I'll be back in a couple of weeks.

I know all these things, but it is still a pretty empty feeling, knowing that I am not really a Delta pilot right now. It was, after all, the only thing that I have ever wanted to be.

But I intend to brush myself off and do something else for a while, hopefully something that I can continue doing after I get called back. I am going to view this as an opportunity, not a tragedy. This way, if for any reason in the future I am unable to fly, I will be prepared.

In the meantime, I intend to mope and be miserable for a couple of days, anyway! I am sure the other furloughees on this board know what I mean.

It sucks.

P.S.
To answer your other question, until yesterday, I was on the 737-800 out of New York.

 

[bayoubandit]

FDJ,

Hang in there man! On my last trip before being furloughed, the guys tried to lighten my mood by saying your not a real airline pilot until you've been furloughed. It did make me laugh. My apologies if you've been furloughed before. It is an awefull feeling though.

Chalk this one up to building character.

 

[rjcap]

FDJ,

Sorry to hear about your situation. I will commend you on your positive attitude. You will do well in whatever venture you pursue during your furlough.

On another note, does anyone know what is going on with the recent AE and AA announcement ?
These are the last group of guys I ever thought would come together !!!


rjcap

 

[surplus1]

FlyDeltaJets

I'm really sorry to hear that. Had no idea you were that close.

In spite of all our differences, I've come to regard you as somewhat of a "buddy" and I share your pain. I've been furloughed myself, so I do understand the feelings. I've also had my airline fall out from under me at a time in life that made me know that I would never, ever, be able to do what I loved most again. Much worse than a furlough when you lose your dream job forever.

You are very bright and you have a positive attitude that I admire. Don't let this get you down. You'll make it and you WILL be recalled, even if it takes a little longer than you would like.

I wish you all the luck in the world and I hope you'll stay in these converstions. It's a pleasure to debate with you (even if you're wrong)

Being furloughed does NOT mean that you are not still a Delta pilot. Hang in there.

Sincerely,
Surplus1

 

[surplus1]

Delta Po Boy

The thing that I don't undestand about the RJDC and a merged seniority list concerns career expectations.

Based on this assumption, I have a hard time understanding the rationale behind the notion that a merged/stapled list is a right or an expectation of the RJ pilots.

Between those two statements you outlined all the money related career expectations that you considered in applying for your job, and then reached your conclusion of being unable to understand that "a merged/stapled list is a right or an expectation of the RJ pilots."

It appears that your conclusions are based only on the fact that your career at a major is more financially rewarding. Well it is, but that has little if anything to do with why a regional pilot feels that if your airline buys his airline the seniority lists should be merged. It also has nothing to do with why there is a lawsuit against the ALPA.

You appear to see the regional pilot as having fewer rights solely because your career expectations are higher than his are. The regional pilot sees himself as an airline pilot just like you. A professional equal (which is unrelated to how much money he makes). The regional pilot does not see himself as being any different from lets say a Spirit pilot or an AirTran pilot merely because his airplane happens to be smaller than Delta airplanes, his paycheck lower than yours or his career expectations at the regional different from yours. If your Company (Delta) bought Spirit or AirTran, he KNOWS you would merge the lists without hesitation.

The career expectations of a Spirit pilot or an AirTran pilot are certainly different than those of a Delta pilot, yet you would see and treat them differently. So, the regional pilot doesn't understand why you reject him as unworthy of the same treatment. Neither does he understand why you become annoyed when he claims the same "right" to equal treatment by his union.

The overwhelming majority of regional pilots DO NOT feel that they are entitled to displace you in a merger or that they should retain DOH in a merger. They are NOT trying to diminish YOUR career expectations. They would NOT expect to have any "right" to the seniority list, i.e., to merge lists, if your airline had not purchased their airline.

As an example, informed regional pilots do not comprehend how or why, when an airline like American acquires a nondescript company like Reno, with 300 pilots, it's just fine to merge with them, yet at the same time AA pilots will apparently fight to the death to avoid a merger with Eagle which is about 8 times the size of Reno. Delta pilots seem to share the jaundiced view of the AA pilots with respect to ASA and Comair.

Delta Air Lines is owned by Delta, Inc. So is Comair and so is ASA. Apart from our different equipment, just what makes you a Delta employee and me Not a Delta employee? Is it the names of the corporations or something else? Would it be different if they called us something other than Delta Connection or Comair? Pray, tell me.

What is the difference between an Eagle Captain who becomes and FO at American due to a merger and a Reno Captain who does the same thing? As a regional pilot myself the only difference that I see results from prejudice and bigotry against Eagle pilots on the part of American pilots. The situation at Delta is quite similar though not identical. One key difference is this: AA pilots are represented by the APA, and Eagle pilots by the ALPA. In our case, the Union is one and the same.

When Delta pilots write language in their contract that has the intentional and deliberate effect of limiting the career expectations of Comair pilots (not at Delta, but at Comair), and which might even result in furloughs of Comair pilots that are definitely NOT market related then, at the same time, absolutely refuse to even consider any possibility of integrating with those Comair pilots (whose airline was just purchased by Delta), how exactly do you expect Comair pilots to feel? Why should they NOT expect seniority integration? [Whether it’s a staple or anything else that can be mutually agreed with Delta pilots.]

What is the reason why Delta pilots object so strongly to the idea of a merger of the lists? What is the reason why the labor union, that Comair pilots pay to represent them, objects to the possibility of a seniority integration with the same or even more vigor than Delta pilots? What is so untouchable about Comair pilots that should make these reactions from Delta pilots and from ALPA understandable or palatable?

The motivation of Delta pilots and particularly of the Union, is arbitrary, unreasonable and illogical and could only be based on prejudice and discrimination. Comair pilots don't understand that. Comair pilots think that is wrong. Comair pilots can't sue Delta pilots for their "feelings" no matter how unjustified. But, when it comes to their Union supporting, aiding and abetting the Delta pilots in that overt action to control Comair careers (new Scope), that's a different story.

Delta pilots have no obligations to Comair pilots. However, the union does. The union has both a representational and a fiduciary responsibility to Comair pilots. The union has chosen to violate both. The unions actions are arbitrary, discriminatory and in violation of it's Constitution. The union has deliberately breached its Duty of Fair Representation which, when proven in court, will mean the union has violated Federal law. Comair pilots do not accept this action by their union and the RJDC is nothing more than a group of pilots that is using our legal system to defend and protect their rights and the rights of all Comair pilots.

I know every pilot wants to be maximize pay and quality of life, but I don't think any Comair pilot signed on the dotted line because they expected the seniority list to be merged/stapled and they would soon be flying 767's. Am I way off base here?

No, you are not off base. You are very correct. That however, is not the issue. The RJDC is not suing ALPA to get something that you have nor to take something from you. They are NOT suing to enhance their expectations, they are suing to protect their expectations at Comair.

You are right. No Comair pilot expected he would soon be flying 767's and still doesn't. Another thing that Comair pilots did not expect, was that some group of pilots in another airline would be telling them which RJ they could fly, how many RJs they could fly, where those RJs could go, what stage lengths they could fly over, etc. Neither did Comair pilots expect that Delta pilots would be deciding when they should be furloughed or how big their airline might grow to become. Either Comair is one and the same as Delta (in which case Delta pilots can do all of those things or Comair is a separate airline and Delta pilots may not do any of those things. You simply cannot have it both ways.

You do not want us to be co-mingled with you, but you want to control our future lives and our destiny. That can only create conflict. It is not up to us to choose which you want to do. It is up to us to let you know that you can't do both at the same time. Choose to be co-mingled and, by virtue of your superior numbers, you will be able to do as you please whether we like it or not. Choose to be separate (which you have) and you may determine what YOU do, but WE will determine what WE do. You can't have the cake and eat it too.

You have the right to desire whatever forms of Scope you please. Legally however, you are represented by the ALPA and so are we. Therefore, although you may believe otherwise, your Scope is not legally authored by you. It is authored and provided by the ALPA. While I'm sure you see it as protecting YOUR flying, we see it as an attempt to limit OUR flying.

ALPA has decided (against the wishes of Comair pilots and in favor of the wishes of Delta pilots) that Delta and Comair are not operationally integrated and are therefore separate airlines. ALPA may have the right to make that decision. What ALPA does after the decision, is an entirely different matter.

ALPA has taken direct action, through the Delta pilots Scope clause, to unilaterally, arbitrarily and without the consent of Comair pilots, determine that the career expectations of a Comair pilot (at Comair) are subordinate and inferior to the career expectations of a Delta pilot (at Delta.), and further, that the career expectations of Comair pilots (at Comair) may be reduced or eliminated completely, at will, in favor of Delta pilots desires.

ALPA has arbitrarily and unilaterally decided that it has the right to, and has taken direct action to control and otherwise limit, the specific types and numbers of aircraft that Comair pilots, working at an air carrier that ALPA represents, and which ALPA itself has determined to be "separate" from Delta, may fly, etc., etc.. ALPA has no God given right to do that, no moral right to do that and no legal right to do that. That is why ALPA is being sued.

The filing of the PID request, including the timing of that filing, was to provide an opportunity for the ALPA to choose which of the two options it preferred and avoid this conflict. The ALPA chose both to reject the PID and implement the injurious Scope. Therefore, the only remedy left to Comair pilots was legal action against the ALPA. IMO, the lawsuit has nothing whatever to do with any attempt, real or imagined, on the part of Comair pilots to abrogate the seniority of Delta pilots. It has everything to do with protecting the rights of Comair pilots to both exist, progress and realize their career expectations at Comair.

I do not expect you to agree with this. Perhaps however you can better understand why the dispute exists and what the remedies might be.

 

[FlyDeltasJets]

Thanks for the kind words, guys. They are appreciated, and I hope that all of us are back where we belong soon.

Surplus,

Of course I'll still be here. You won't be able to get rid of me nearly as easily as Delta did!

 

[Delta Po Boy]

Surplus,

I've tried to move my post from the other thread to this one. I hope I did it right.

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You appear to see the regional pilot as having fewer rights solely because your career expectations are higher than his are. The regional pilot sees himself as an airline pilot just like you. A professional equal (which is unrelated to how much money he makes).
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I see a regional pilot as a professional equal. I don't think the regional pilot should have fewer rights because my career expectations are higher. But I do think ALPA must do what is best for the pilot group as a WHOLE. IMO, that means ensuring mainline flying is not scoped out to regionals. You may disagree.


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The career expectations of a Spirit pilot or an AirTran pilot are certainly different than those of a Delta pilot, yet you would see and treat them differently. So, the regional pilot doesn't understand why you reject him as unworthy of the same treatment. Neither does he understand why you become annoyed when he claims the same "right" to equal treatment by his union.
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I do not reject a regional pilot as unworthy and I am not annoyed when he claims the same "right" to equal treatment by is union. Maybe I'm resistant to change (a bad trait to have as an airline pilot), but I'm cautious about ANY mergers regardless if it's Spirit, Air Tran, Comair, or Continental. I would not treat a Spirit or AirTran merger any differently.


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Delta Air Lines is owned by Delta, Inc. So is Comair and so is ASA. Apart from our different equipment, just what makes you a Delta employee and me Not a Delta employee? Is it the names of the corporations or something else? Would it be different if they called us something other than Delta Connection or Comair? Pray, tell me.
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Delta Management determines who is, and who is not, a Delta employee. It is a financial decision for DAL management to furlough up to 1400 DAL pilots. It is also a financial decision to keep Comair/ASA folks from being Delta employees.


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When Delta pilots write language in their contract that has the intentional and deliberate effect of limiting the career expectations of Comair pilots (not at Delta, but at Comair), and which might even result in furloughs of Comair pilots that are definitely NOT market related then, at the same time, absolutely refuse to even consider any possibility of integrating with those Comair pilots (whose airline was just purchased by Delta), how exactly do you expect Comair pilots to feel? Why should they NOT expect seniority integration? [Whether it’s a staple or anything else that can be mutually agreed with Delta pilots.]
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A Comair pilot sees the language as limiting his career expectations while the Delta pilot sees it as preserving his career expectations. It depends on your point of reference.


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What is the reason why Delta pilots object so strongly to the idea of a merger of the lists? What is the reason why the labor union, that Comair pilots pay to represent them, objects to the possibility of a seniority integration with the same or even more vigor than Delta pilots? What is so untouchable about Comair pilots that should make these reactions from Delta pilots and from ALPA understandable or palatable?
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I don't know why Delta pilots are so strongly against the idea of a merger other than, IMO, there is very little to gain. Just as you see some negatives to one list, Delta pilots do too.

Although I cannot speak for ALPA, I am assuming they object to the idea is because they do not think a merger is in the best interest of the pilots AS A WHOLE.


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You have the right to desire whatever forms of Scope you please. Legally however, you are represented by the ALPA and so are we. Therefore, although you may believe otherwise, your Scope is not legally authored by you. It is authored and provided by the ALPA. While I'm sure you see it as protecting YOUR flying, we see it as an attempt to limit OUR flying.
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I agree.


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I do not expect you to agree with this. Perhaps however you can better understand why the dispute exists and what the remedies might be.
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While we may differ on some of our views, I appreciate your well thought logic and your rational approach to expressing your points.