Comair's got a T.A.

[Buddro]

I just talked to a friend who interviewed. He said they told him Comair was getting -900s. In my opinion, it's disingenuous to tell new hires that, as that information is unknowable except for the executives who make those decisions at Delta, and I don't think they are sharing that information with Comair HR. Comair may or may not get more airplanes, but you can't say everything will be rosy when you just don't know.

When I interviewed over 4 years ago, they told our interview group that we would all be captains within 2 years. I only stuck it out three years, guess what......I would still be a FO just barely off reserve in CVG (That's right a 4 year FO just barely off reserve in CVG).

The HR Folks are sales people, they tell you what you wanna hear. Just read the news and USE COMMON SENSE. Comair will NEVER be what it was. The only upgrades are coming from ATTRITION. That's right folks, people are bailing FAST. Somewhere to the tune of 2 pilots/1 FA per day.

DREWBLOWS this is not directed towards you, just in reply to what you said....No offense intended.

 

[172driver]

My guess on the TA...they sweetened the rates a percent or two and threw in some "guaranteed" airframes. JC will spin it to the effect of, "we have negotiated a mutually acceptable agreement at last, with job protection for all." I hope the CMR group stands strong, vote this thing down, and recalls the MEC.

Before you go saying, "but we don't even know what the TA says yet," think about it. It's not going to be good. It will be better than previous offers, but much less than the current contract.

 

[staylow]

OUCH!...here's that bar...oh my aching...

What happened to the bar all the comair folks where talking about? Go alpa?

I have no idea why anyone would vote yes to a TA that the union brings to the pilot group. Anyone who has seen the "changes to the contract" to be implemented by the company (Soaper's crap) should know that after the recent ruling by Judge Hardin the union has lost most, if not all of it's negotiating power. So what could they have improved? I supect nothing but being able to keep the "upsides" the company is threatening to have the courts take away. ("Upsides" is a loose term used by those it might benefit. For everyone else "more crap" works better.) I believe that crook Hardin would and will take the "upsides" if he gets the opportunity.

Here's my big delima. Voting yes to the TA without a work rules/pay freeze or work rules/pay raise is a huge dis-service to the folks who walk the line for 89 days in 2001. Life at Comair has really sucked for the last two-and-one-half years and now we are going to be given an opportunity to vote on another sucky 4 to 6 years...plus the additional 3 to 4 years to re-negotiate a new contract. So vote yes to the TA and spend the next 7 to 10 years regretting the vote. I'm not 100% sure but the other option is to vote no and suck it up for 2 years when the company has to re-negotiate the terms they implemented during the 1113(c) procedures. So 2 years plus 3 to 4 years to re-negotiate...5 to 6 years is better than 7 to 10 years. Either way life here at Comair is going to blow for a long time. Please pass the Kool Aid...

If anyone knows anything about the 24 month limit to terms implemented during the 1113(c); I would love to know what they are.

 

[SiuDude]

Good luck guys, Hopefully we can give you your 70's back now since I'm sure we'll be the over paid ones in this marriage.

ASA is picking up 2 more 700's tomorrow from RFD.

 

[Skippy]

Ill just ask what others are thinking:


1. Someone please explain to me why the hell are you in concessionary talks with your carrier. Correct me if im wrong , but you just recently made money in the fourth quarter ( about 50 million or so), arguably the most difficult quarter to do so. So in my thoughts, concessions arent necessary. Moving on...

2. Why doesnt JC put in a rider in the TA that states, after the concession ( we all know it is one) that any mgmt bonus or item seen that way, will make this agreement null and void or kick back the rates on whatever concession you just agreed to. In fact, penalize the company for doing so.

3. There are ways to combat this, you just have to stand strong. Just becuase you have a TA doesnt mean SCHIT! You can still vote it down and go back to the drawing board, wait for them to exit bankruptcy , or get everyone together and massively resign to get the point across. The judge said it best, resigning is not seen as a work action.

Our pilot group, my self as long as the remaining regionals want not only the best for you but the industry as a whole.

SKIPPY

 

[DirkkDiggler]

1. Someone please explain to me why the hell are you in concessionary talks with your carrier. Correct me if im wrong , but you just recently made money in the fourth quarter ( about 50 million or so), arguably the most difficult quarter to do so. So in my thoughts, concessions arent necessary. Moving on...

Probably because a bankruptcy judge has already authorized the company to impose pay cuts on them.

 

[Skippy]

Yes but they dont have the balls to do so! To my knowledge it hasnt been done by a company. Why? becuase they dont wish to go into uncharted territory! They can get all the legal rulings they want, enforcing them without consequences is another.

dealines dont mean crap to airlines, when was the last time they made one?
Its merely tactical. As in look what we can do. It's a mere bluff and they dont have the balls to see it thru.

I agree wholeheartedly about the disservice to the striking people. You fought so hard to get what you deserved and what other regionals strived to attain, that to not do it again, is just sad. I understand the whole providing for the family etc, but if 50%, even 30%, said we resign, it would be impossible for comair to function and bring the momentum back in your favor.
And the kicker, its all legal. Theres no way an airline would allow that to happen and put all its employees out of work, let alone themselves. Also you put a rider in the newly revised TA that states the resignations from the following people or dates will not be accepted and everyone back to work as normal. no harm , no foul. Anyway thats how i would play it, but i like to chance things and push the envelope.

I also agree that Just about anything brought back to the pilot group should almost always be voted down and tweaked before agreeing to it-- the same tactic the mgmt uses.

 

[michael707767]

Yes but they dont have the balls to do so! To my knowledge it hasnt been done by a company. Why? becuase they dont wish to go into uncharted territory!

he has a very good point. Has any airline that got the authority to impose terms actually done it?

 

[imacdog]

Didn't Northwest with their FAs?

 

[DrewBlows]

It's not uncharted territory, Northwest imposed terms on their Flight Attendants. They (NWA FAs) decided that what the company was offering wasn't better than continuing the legal process. Apparently Comair's ALPA negotiating commitee has decided that what the company is offering is better than continuing the legal process.

Since I haven't seen the TA (and I doubt anyone else posting here has either), I'm going to hold judgement.


Skippy, if you start a fund to reimburse every Comair pilot who quits. I'll turn in my two weeks notice tomorrow. If you don't want to do that, I invite you to quit your job as it would be "good for the industry".

 

[staylow]

Passing out the Kool Aid

Yes but they dont have the balls to do so!...I understand the whole providing for the family etc, but if 50%, even 30%, said we resign, it would be impossible for comair to function and bring the momentum back in your favor.
And the kicker, its all legal.

The true problem with the whole resignation "equation" is that Comair Management/Delta Management could care less about Comair. Comair is worth more in parts than as a whole. Also there are too many pilots at Comair who have decided to make this place their career and that in combination with no college degree equals little or no opportunity (academy guys). Also getting a guy who is making $85K to $105k to resign when his pay cut is less than 10% will be impossible. Then take the guys who have been here 8-12 years, they are starting to make some money and going somewhere else and starting over at $35k to $40k, a majority of their wives/husbands aren't going to let that happen.

Those three group make up a large portion of the pilot group who will vote yes to the TA. Just like January 2006 it was 9 votes that potentially screwed the pilot group. I say vote no...and get ready to spit blood. This ride is going to suck.

 

[wrigley23]

Also there are too many pilots at Comair who have decided to make this place their career and that in combination with no college degree equals little or no opportunity (academy guys).

Hey putz, many academy guys have degrees and many had non aviation careers but they got into this hell hole of an industry. There is a small minority who went into flying directly out of high school who, you're right, this is about all they've got, but next time leave your broad generalizations to yourself, thanks.

 

[staylow]

What?

Hey putz, many academy guys have degrees and many had non aviation careers but they got into this hell hole of an industry. There is a small minority who went into flying directly out of high school who, you're right, this is about all they've got, but next time leave your broad generalizations to yourself, thanks.

"Academy guys" is not a broad generalization, it is an example of some of the pilots in the Comair fold who chose to attend a flight training school that offers no college credit or college course study for students attending training. I believe I could also use "ATP" or "Serria Academy," but I am not 100% sure. But it is a well known fact that the majority at Comair come from Delta Connections Academy. Relax and take a deep breath...I am only using the information to make a point. You don't have to defend the academy choice...nobody cares. It's just information.

 

[Occam's Razor]

Holy Moly!

Barking at Comair pilots about a T.A. you haven't seen?

The Comair pilot group was shuffling to the gallows thanks to the clever manipulation of the Commerical Agreement by Delta management, the management-friendly environment of Bankruptcy Court, and the willingness of other judges to step in and carry management's water....and we're blaming the Comair pilots?

That's a stupid as Bill O'Reilly claiming that kidnapped boy was living the good life with his abuser!

The fact that they negotiated terms indicates they kept their wits about them in a situation where half the posters here are interested in working there...and the other half are screaming for Comair pilots to jump off the ledge "for the good of the profession".

Now we know what the script would look like if they let McLean patients write a sitcom...

 

[xjlifer]

Holy Moly!

Barking at Comair pilots about a T.A. you haven't seen?

The Comair pilot group was shuffling to the gallows thanks to the clever manipulation of the Commerical Agreement by Delta management, the management-friendly environment of Bankruptcy Court, and the willingness of other judges to step in and carry management's water....and we're blaming the Comair pilots?

That's a stupid as Bill O'Reilly claiming that kidnapped boy was living the good life with his abuser!

The fact that they negotiated terms indicates they kept their wits about them in a situation where half the posters here are interested in working there...and the other half are screaming for Comair pilots to jump off the ledge "for the good of the profession".

Now we know what the script would look like if they let McLean patients write a sitcom...

Occam...you always are a voice of reason and it always amazes me. On this forum that is equal parts rare and ignored.

 

[JonnyKnoxville]

"Academy guys" is not a broad generalization, it is an example of some of the pilots in the Comair fold who chose to attend a flight training school that offers no college credit or college course study for students attending training. I believe I could also use "ATP" or "Serria Academy," but I am not 100% sure. But it is a well known fact that the majority at Comair come from Delta Connections Academy. Relax and take a deep breath...I am only using the information to make a point. You don't have to defend the academy choice...nobody cares. It's just information.

Just for your information, the Delta Connection Academy has college programs at many locations throughout the United States. All of these programs are run in conjunction with a college program (like Embry Riddle). These college programs have more students enrolled than the main Delta Connection Academy campus in Sanford, Florida. So it is safe to say that the MAJORITY of Delta Connection Academy graduates now have their college degrees. This conclusion excludes the Sanford, Florida students that started the program with a college degree already in hand.

So I guess that means the minority of Delta Connection Academy Graduates complete the program without a degree.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Jonny,

Can you post any actual numbers, or are you just guessing? I left Comair in November 2005 after 6 years there. And an overwhelming majority of the Comair Academy grads had no degree.

I have two things I almost always think about when people ask me about the people who went to the Comair Academy. (I didn't even know the Comair Aviation Academy existed until I started Basic Indoc at Comair.) First off, I thought it was funny that whenever I was doing the crew briefing and asking where the FO was from that without fail their answer was: "I graduated from the Academy". To which I'd ask "Air Force Academy?" No. "Naval Academy?" No. Taking flying lessons from some flight school is a hell of a lot different (to me anyway) than "graduating from the Academy."

The other observation is that the Comair Academy folks were either A.) really sharp pilots, or B.) just a complete disaster. In my experience, there wasn't much middle ground. I don't know if that was just a function of the individuals involved, or something to do with the curriculum. Who knows?

Anyway, I'd like to see some facts about the percentage of Comair pilots with degrees...

Just for your information, the Delta Connection Academy has college programs at many locations throughout the United States. All of these programs are run in conjunction with a college program (like Embry Riddle). These college programs have more students enrolled than the main Delta Connection Academy campus in Sanford, Florida. So it is safe to say that the MAJORITY of Delta Connection Academy graduates now have their college degrees. This conclusion excludes the Sanford, Florida students that started the program with a college degree already in hand.

So I guess that means the minority of Delta Connection Academy Graduates complete the program without a degree.

 

[standaman]

Jonny,

Can you post any actual numbers, or are you just guessing? I left Comair in November 2005 after 6 years there. And an overwhelming majority of the Comair Academy grads had no degree.

I have two things I almost always think about when people ask me about the people who went to the Comair Academy. (I didn't even know the Comair Aviation Academy existed until I started Basic Indoc at Comair.) First off, I thought it was funny that whenever I was doing the crew briefing and asking where the FO was from that without fail their answer was: "I graduated from the Academy". To which I'd ask "Air Force Academy?" No. "Naval Academy?" No. Taking flying lessons from some flight school is a hell of a lot different (to me anyway) than "graduating from the Academy."

The other observation is that the Comair Academy folks were either A.) really sharp pilots, or B.) just a complete disaster. In my experience, there wasn't much middle ground. I don't know if that was just a function of the individuals involved, or something to do with the curriculum. Who knows?

Anyway, I'd like to see some facts about the percentage of Comair pilots with degrees...

Fact 1: I am a Comair Pilot
Fact 2: I am an Academy Grad with a degree
Fact 3: This topic proves nothing.
Fact 4: Who Cares!!!!

 

[SBD]

Got a degree and went to DCA. So freakin' what? Are you trying to imply that people that go to DCA aren't college grads? You will be suprised how many people their have a college degree. It still doesn't change that DCA blows chunks.

 

[Broke in CVG]

I am a Comair Capt and recieved a degree (actually three of them) from real schools. Thank God I did, because as soon as the house is sold in CVG, I am out of this Walmartized business for good.

If you decide or are forced out of aviation, what the heck are you going to do with a degree from ERAU, or DCA, or UND? I never understood the Aviation degree as it is not required or even preferential in hiring for a pilot position. But if you go for a business management position or anything other than aviation they look at that ERAU as a step below Pheonix University Online BS degree.

Sorry, but those are the facts!

So why do people go spend their $$$ at ERAU or DCA instead of going to college and getting a BSBA or MS and flying on the side?

 

[mac36]

Got a degree and went to DCA. So freakin' what? Are you trying to imply that people that go to DCA aren't college grads? You will be suprised how many people their have a college degree. It still doesn't change that DCA blows chunks.

Do they teach the use of there/their in college? Don't have a degree myself, but DCA didn't exist when I started either.

 

[mac36]

I am a Comair Capt and recieved a degree (actually three of them) from real schools. Thank God I did, because as soon as the house is sold in CVG, I am out of this Walmartized business for good.

If you decide or are forced out of aviation, what the heck are you going to do with a degree from ERAU, or DCA, or UND? I never understood the Aviation degree as it is not required or even preferential in hiring for a pilot position. But if you go for a business management position or anything other than aviation they look at that ERAU as a step below Pheonix University Online BS degree.

Sorry, but those are the facts!

So why do people go spend their $$$ at ERAU or DCA instead of going to college and getting a BSBA or MS and flying on the side?

Facts? Try these facts/opinions.

I've heard that "something to fall back on" crap since I could find my own way to school.

There are almost as many generic "Business" Degrees walking around as there are rolls of Charmin. Unless you have recent ongoing experience in the field your "non-aviation Degree" is in, a roll of Charmin is probably more useful.

My observation has been that in almost all cases, a "Degree" is merely an expensive prerequisite box to check on a job application. Unless you are narrowly educated in a specialized field (law, medicine, specific areas of engineering, etc.) a degree, is a degree, is a degree. If you've spent the last several years sitting in an airplane, any non-aviation "business management" position where your degree would be useful would likely be in the presence of numerous paper hats.

 

[Garritto]

I agree with you mac36. Also, a bachelors really isn't enough anymore.

 

[i'mbatman]

At my interview in 2005 we were told we were getting E-170's. Airlines do this all the time. UBA757

At mine in 2004 it was a sure thing they were getting the ACA DoJets.

 

[Lear70]

It would certainly be refreshing to see a "No" vote and immediately attempt self-help after BR exit, since you would be effectively working without a contract under imposed conditions.

This still hasn't been tested, and the Bankruptcy judge would NOT be presiding over this scenario. Once the company exits Bankruptcy, they lose the protection of the Bankruptcy judge and have to pursue everything through the Labor Board per the RLA.

That said, it's easy from my (relative) comfort here to say that. However I have left aviation jobs before cold turkey with no other job to fall back on. Twice. The self respect is by far a better thing.

Whatever you guys do, good luck to you.

 

[V-1]

If Comair pilots could immediately walk off the job the day after Delta/Comair emerges from bankruptcy, I suspect this scenario would have a very high probability of occurring.

We've seen how difficult it is to get released to strike by the NMB. It's not impossible, however I don't know that anyone is patient enough to wait four years for an authorization.

No one seems to be able to give solid answer regarding how long after exiting bankruptcy Comair pilots would have a green light to shut the place down.

 

[PCL_128]

It would certainly be refreshing to see a "No" vote and immediately attempt self-help after BR exit, since you would be effectively working without a contract under imposed conditions.

This still hasn't been tested, and the Bankruptcy judge would NOT be presiding over this scenario. Once the company exits Bankruptcy, they lose the protection of the Bankruptcy judge and have to pursue everything through the Labor Board per the RLA.

That said, it's easy from my (relative) comfort here to say that. However I have left aviation jobs before cold turkey with no other job to fall back on. Twice. The self respect is by far a better thing.

Whatever you guys do, good luck to you.

Your strategy carries great risk with it. If Comair pilots decided to go that route, and the judge rules against us and decides that a strike can only happen under the terms outline in the RLA, then the CMR pilots would then be stuck with the imposed terms for years upon years while the Section 6 process carried on. With a consensual deal, you're much better off.

Captain Prater is already in talks with congressional leaders on legislation to change the 1113 process. If we are successful in that regard, then we won't have to worry about this draconian process anymore.

 

[Lear70]

Your strategy carries great risk with it. If Comair pilots decided to go that route, and the judge rules against us and decides that a strike can only happen under the terms outline in the RLA, then the CMR pilots would then be stuck with the imposed terms for years upon years while the Section 6 process carried on. With a consensual deal, you're much better off.

"MUCH" better off?

I think that's a relative statement.

In terms of the last couple of carriers to go through this, the "agreed" concessions were within a couple percent of the original "imposed" figures if memory serves.

If I had the choice to take a 5% pay cut and be stuck with 8-10 years before I'd get a better contract or a 10% pay cut and be in a position to either immediately affect self-help or at least start the mediation process with probably not more than 2 years before being released by the NMB, I'd take the 10% pay cut and look forward to a quicker resolution.

But that's just me. 5% of an already crappy wage just means I need to work an extra day every month or flip a house once every 6 months or so.

Depends on what it's worth to each individual Comair pilot and just how MUCH better the agreement is than the threatened imposed wages.

 

[Lear70]

No one seems to be able to give solid answer regarding how long after exiting bankruptcy Comair pilots would have a green light to shut the place down.

Yep. There's the rub...

 

[PCL_128]

"MUCH" better off?

I think that's a relative statement.

Yep. And that's exactly why memrat exists. The pilots have to decide what is worth while to them.

In terms of the last couple of carriers to go through this, the "agreed" concessions were within a couple percent of the original "imposed" figures if memory serves.

True, but most of them also included debt claims or snapbacks that mitigate the losses. These would not have existed under imposed terms. The pilots at XJ have actually done better under their concessionary agreement due to their ability to get 100 cents on the dollar for their debt claim. Crazy but true.