Comair's got a T.A.

[JonnyKnoxville]

"Academy guys" is not a broad generalization, it is an example of some of the pilots in the Comair fold who chose to attend a flight training school that offers no college credit or college course study for students attending training. I believe I could also use "ATP" or "Serria Academy," but I am not 100% sure. But it is a well known fact that the majority at Comair come from Delta Connections Academy. Relax and take a deep breath...I am only using the information to make a point. You don't have to defend the academy choice...nobody cares. It's just information.

Just for your information, the Delta Connection Academy has college programs at many locations throughout the United States. All of these programs are run in conjunction with a college program (like Embry Riddle). These college programs have more students enrolled than the main Delta Connection Academy campus in Sanford, Florida. So it is safe to say that the MAJORITY of Delta Connection Academy graduates now have their college degrees. This conclusion excludes the Sanford, Florida students that started the program with a college degree already in hand.

So I guess that means the minority of Delta Connection Academy Graduates complete the program without a degree.

 

[Bob_Sacamano]

Jonny,

Can you post any actual numbers, or are you just guessing? I left Comair in November 2005 after 6 years there. And an overwhelming majority of the Comair Academy grads had no degree.

I have two things I almost always think about when people ask me about the people who went to the Comair Academy. (I didn't even know the Comair Aviation Academy existed until I started Basic Indoc at Comair.) First off, I thought it was funny that whenever I was doing the crew briefing and asking where the FO was from that without fail their answer was: "I graduated from the Academy". To which I'd ask "Air Force Academy?" No. "Naval Academy?" No. Taking flying lessons from some flight school is a hell of a lot different (to me anyway) than "graduating from the Academy."

The other observation is that the Comair Academy folks were either A.) really sharp pilots, or B.) just a complete disaster. In my experience, there wasn't much middle ground. I don't know if that was just a function of the individuals involved, or something to do with the curriculum. Who knows?

Anyway, I'd like to see some facts about the percentage of Comair pilots with degrees...

Just for your information, the Delta Connection Academy has college programs at many locations throughout the United States. All of these programs are run in conjunction with a college program (like Embry Riddle). These college programs have more students enrolled than the main Delta Connection Academy campus in Sanford, Florida. So it is safe to say that the MAJORITY of Delta Connection Academy graduates now have their college degrees. This conclusion excludes the Sanford, Florida students that started the program with a college degree already in hand.

So I guess that means the minority of Delta Connection Academy Graduates complete the program without a degree.

 

[standaman]

Jonny,

Can you post any actual numbers, or are you just guessing? I left Comair in November 2005 after 6 years there. And an overwhelming majority of the Comair Academy grads had no degree.

I have two things I almost always think about when people ask me about the people who went to the Comair Academy. (I didn't even know the Comair Aviation Academy existed until I started Basic Indoc at Comair.) First off, I thought it was funny that whenever I was doing the crew briefing and asking where the FO was from that without fail their answer was: "I graduated from the Academy". To which I'd ask "Air Force Academy?" No. "Naval Academy?" No. Taking flying lessons from some flight school is a hell of a lot different (to me anyway) than "graduating from the Academy."

The other observation is that the Comair Academy folks were either A.) really sharp pilots, or B.) just a complete disaster. In my experience, there wasn't much middle ground. I don't know if that was just a function of the individuals involved, or something to do with the curriculum. Who knows?

Anyway, I'd like to see some facts about the percentage of Comair pilots with degrees...

Fact 1: I am a Comair Pilot
Fact 2: I am an Academy Grad with a degree
Fact 3: This topic proves nothing.
Fact 4: Who Cares!!!!

 

[SBD]

Got a degree and went to DCA. So freakin' what? Are you trying to imply that people that go to DCA aren't college grads? You will be suprised how many people their have a college degree. It still doesn't change that DCA blows chunks.

 

[Broke in CVG]

I am a Comair Capt and recieved a degree (actually three of them) from real schools. Thank God I did, because as soon as the house is sold in CVG, I am out of this Walmartized business for good.

If you decide or are forced out of aviation, what the heck are you going to do with a degree from ERAU, or DCA, or UND? I never understood the Aviation degree as it is not required or even preferential in hiring for a pilot position. But if you go for a business management position or anything other than aviation they look at that ERAU as a step below Pheonix University Online BS degree.

Sorry, but those are the facts!

So why do people go spend their $$$ at ERAU or DCA instead of going to college and getting a BSBA or MS and flying on the side?

 

[mac36]

Got a degree and went to DCA. So freakin' what? Are you trying to imply that people that go to DCA aren't college grads? You will be suprised how many people their have a college degree. It still doesn't change that DCA blows chunks.

Do they teach the use of there/their in college? Don't have a degree myself, but DCA didn't exist when I started either.

 

[mac36]

I am a Comair Capt and recieved a degree (actually three of them) from real schools. Thank God I did, because as soon as the house is sold in CVG, I am out of this Walmartized business for good.

If you decide or are forced out of aviation, what the heck are you going to do with a degree from ERAU, or DCA, or UND? I never understood the Aviation degree as it is not required or even preferential in hiring for a pilot position. But if you go for a business management position or anything other than aviation they look at that ERAU as a step below Pheonix University Online BS degree.

Sorry, but those are the facts!

So why do people go spend their $$$ at ERAU or DCA instead of going to college and getting a BSBA or MS and flying on the side?

Facts? Try these facts/opinions.

I've heard that "something to fall back on" crap since I could find my own way to school.

There are almost as many generic "Business" Degrees walking around as there are rolls of Charmin. Unless you have recent ongoing experience in the field your "non-aviation Degree" is in, a roll of Charmin is probably more useful.

My observation has been that in almost all cases, a "Degree" is merely an expensive prerequisite box to check on a job application. Unless you are narrowly educated in a specialized field (law, medicine, specific areas of engineering, etc.) a degree, is a degree, is a degree. If you've spent the last several years sitting in an airplane, any non-aviation "business management" position where your degree would be useful would likely be in the presence of numerous paper hats.

 

[Garritto]

I agree with you mac36. Also, a bachelors really isn't enough anymore.

 

[i'mbatman]

At my interview in 2005 we were told we were getting E-170's. Airlines do this all the time. UBA757

At mine in 2004 it was a sure thing they were getting the ACA DoJets.

 

[Lear70]

It would certainly be refreshing to see a "No" vote and immediately attempt self-help after BR exit, since you would be effectively working without a contract under imposed conditions.

This still hasn't been tested, and the Bankruptcy judge would NOT be presiding over this scenario. Once the company exits Bankruptcy, they lose the protection of the Bankruptcy judge and have to pursue everything through the Labor Board per the RLA.

That said, it's easy from my (relative) comfort here to say that. However I have left aviation jobs before cold turkey with no other job to fall back on. Twice. The self respect is by far a better thing.

Whatever you guys do, good luck to you.

 

[V-1]

If Comair pilots could immediately walk off the job the day after Delta/Comair emerges from bankruptcy, I suspect this scenario would have a very high probability of occurring.

We've seen how difficult it is to get released to strike by the NMB. It's not impossible, however I don't know that anyone is patient enough to wait four years for an authorization.

No one seems to be able to give solid answer regarding how long after exiting bankruptcy Comair pilots would have a green light to shut the place down.

 

[PCL_128]

It would certainly be refreshing to see a "No" vote and immediately attempt self-help after BR exit, since you would be effectively working without a contract under imposed conditions.

This still hasn't been tested, and the Bankruptcy judge would NOT be presiding over this scenario. Once the company exits Bankruptcy, they lose the protection of the Bankruptcy judge and have to pursue everything through the Labor Board per the RLA.

That said, it's easy from my (relative) comfort here to say that. However I have left aviation jobs before cold turkey with no other job to fall back on. Twice. The self respect is by far a better thing.

Whatever you guys do, good luck to you.

Your strategy carries great risk with it. If Comair pilots decided to go that route, and the judge rules against us and decides that a strike can only happen under the terms outline in the RLA, then the CMR pilots would then be stuck with the imposed terms for years upon years while the Section 6 process carried on. With a consensual deal, you're much better off.

Captain Prater is already in talks with congressional leaders on legislation to change the 1113 process. If we are successful in that regard, then we won't have to worry about this draconian process anymore.

 

[Lear70]

Your strategy carries great risk with it. If Comair pilots decided to go that route, and the judge rules against us and decides that a strike can only happen under the terms outline in the RLA, then the CMR pilots would then be stuck with the imposed terms for years upon years while the Section 6 process carried on. With a consensual deal, you're much better off.

"MUCH" better off?

I think that's a relative statement.

In terms of the last couple of carriers to go through this, the "agreed" concessions were within a couple percent of the original "imposed" figures if memory serves.

If I had the choice to take a 5% pay cut and be stuck with 8-10 years before I'd get a better contract or a 10% pay cut and be in a position to either immediately affect self-help or at least start the mediation process with probably not more than 2 years before being released by the NMB, I'd take the 10% pay cut and look forward to a quicker resolution.

But that's just me. 5% of an already crappy wage just means I need to work an extra day every month or flip a house once every 6 months or so.

Depends on what it's worth to each individual Comair pilot and just how MUCH better the agreement is than the threatened imposed wages.

 

[Lear70]

No one seems to be able to give solid answer regarding how long after exiting bankruptcy Comair pilots would have a green light to shut the place down.

Yep. There's the rub...

 

[PCL_128]

"MUCH" better off?

I think that's a relative statement.

Yep. And that's exactly why memrat exists. The pilots have to decide what is worth while to them.

In terms of the last couple of carriers to go through this, the "agreed" concessions were within a couple percent of the original "imposed" figures if memory serves.

True, but most of them also included debt claims or snapbacks that mitigate the losses. These would not have existed under imposed terms. The pilots at XJ have actually done better under their concessionary agreement due to their ability to get 100 cents on the dollar for their debt claim. Crazy but true.