COMAIR vs NETJETS?

[surplus1]

Re: I am Disappointed Surplus 1!

I remember your well articulated arguments against CAL / CALEX joining ALPA. Do you remember, on flyforums.com?
Regardless of agrre or disagree with this person, you should have been much more tactful, IMHO.
What a pitty, wasting away credebility like this.

Yes I remember and I was right about that too. If you haven't figured that out yet you surely will. Just ask an ALG or PDT pilot how great it is to be shafted by your own union. For that matter, ask a real CMR pilot.

Sorry if I wasn't tactful. We've worked too long and too hard to make something out of this airline for me to worry much about being tactful. I don't want our ranks infiltrated by people who don't want to be here.

According to Joel he's been here 6 months and he's looking for another job. Then why did he come in the first place? To make this a "stepping stone"? To play with us for awhile? We're too serious about this and our futures, it's not a game, it's our career.

There are too many people in regionals that want stepping stones, and too many green pilots complaining because they can't upgrade in a year, or they have to be on reserve, for six months, etc. and that's one of the primary reasons it is so difficult to make any progress. My pilot group is different. Yes, there are people who change jobs from time to time and I don't get angry with them for doing it.

But when somebody with 2600 hours has been here for 6 months and is looking already, and telling me that he's looking for "quality of life/pay/time off/benefits/vacation etc." all of which I just risked my career to get and which he is now benefiting from without participating or sacrificing anything, he has wasted my Company's money, our training departments time, and has no real concern for becoming one of us.

I don't want to deal or have to fly with anyone who isn't "one of us". Therefore I encourage him to accept the job and move on before we have to waste any more time or effort. He feels he's wasting time with us and I guess I agree with him.

If that's arrogant then I guess I'm arrogant. I call it loyalty to my fellow Comair pilots and to my company that I helped to build. And by the way that Company isn't Delta, it's Comair. This is "ours", we built it from nothing, I'm proud of it, and I don't want to hear anything about how lousy it is from some new hire that has put zero effort in to making this or anything else in aviation better. When you've been here long enough to know something and you're one of us, then you can criticize the rest of us. It takes more than 6 months to cut that mustard.

Anyone that wants to be a part of it is welcome to come, to join with us and make it still better; anyone who doesn't is welcome to leave and preferably won't come at all.

I'm sure NetJets is a fine Company and he'll be happier there. No hard feelings, just reality.

By the way yes, I'm old but I'm still fiesty as h_ll.

 

[Joel]

Surplus1,

I don't recall ever saying anything about being unhappy with COMAIR...you are so fascinated with quoting me, when did I say that??

In fact, I am happy at COMAIR and have been treated very well for a junior perosn on reserve. No complaints...but...if I have the chance to better myself I am going to go for it. In fact, If NetJets had called me earlier I never would have graced your beloved airline with my presence. Arrogant...maybe, but you get the point.

Loyalty?? There is no loyalty in business...just ask all the hard working, loyal, furloughed pilots out on the street. Or better yet, ask all the Orlando pilots that have been displaced?? I feel for them, but I don't want to be one. I think NetJets has more job security than COMAIR and better pay/benefits/quality of life/vacation etc...................................Joel

 

[Dep676]

It sounds like Surplus1 is a little bitter. Being old and crusty and stuck at Comair. I sense a little jealous tone that he has to stay and didn't get to the majors. Now it's too late in his old career. Just my thought.

 

[JimNtexas]

Re: Re: I am Disappointed Surplus 1!

Sorry if I wasn't tactful. We've worked too long and too hard to make something out of this airline for me to worry much about being tactful. I don't want our ranks infiltrated by people who don't want to be here.

According to Joel he's been here 6 months and he's looking for another job. Then why did he come in the first place? To make this a "stepping stone"? To play with us for awhile? We're too serious about this and our futures, it's not a game, it's our career.

....But when somebody with 2600 hours has been here for 6 months and is looking already, and telling me that he's looking for "quality of life/pay/time off/benefits/vacation etc." all of which I just risked my career to get and which he is now benefiting from without participating or sacrificing anything, he has wasted my Company's money, our training departments time, and has no real concern for becoming one of us.
...
I don't want to deal or have to fly with anyone who isn't "one of us". l.

I don't have a dog in this fight, but I have to ask, is Comair a company or a religion? This is a capitalist country. If an employee is hired, shows up, and does his job he or she is entitled to receive the agreed on paycheck.

What if the shoe is on the other foot, and Comair decides that it doesn't need as many pilots, and this junior pilot gets laid off? Are you going to pay his salary? Did Comair promise him lifetime employment? Are Comair new guys indentured servants?

You need to learn that this is a capitalist country. It is not treason for an employee to consider changing jobs at any point if that is better for him. It has nothing to do with his skill as a pilot. It's called being a Free American.

Instead of attacking the guy, you ought to do what you can to make Comair a better place to work, then maybe people won't be thinking about leaving the congregation after a few months. Maybe start by letting some air pressure out of the space between your ears.

Jim

 

[ozpilot]

I left Comair for Netjets at the end of the strike a year ago. I was a third year Captain at Comair.

For me it was the right decision. All the good points posted above about Netjets are pretty much true. You should be aware however, that flying for a scheduled airline – such as Comair – does have some advantages over fractional flying. Its like comparing driving a limo vs. driving a bus.

As a limo driver you will be expected to have a greater interaction with the passengers, and you will not have the level of support in the field that you have at an airline. If you piss off a passenger at an airline and they don’t come back, it has a minimal impact on the company’s bottom line. If you do it at a fractional where the owner is a multimillionaire it can mean your job.

At Comair its easy to fly a four day trip and never even talk to a passenger; At Netjets you are expected to be not only the pilot but also the customer service representative. You are also expected to be the baggage handler, caterer, aircraft cleaner, security, EMS person etc. etc. Remember that unless you are in the Falcon or the BBJ you will not have the benefit of a Flight Attendant. There’s a reason our company recurrent takes a week! Our job is not just transportation; it is to spoil our passengers rotten. At Netjets ‘whatever it takes’ means just that. Personally I like dealing with my passengers at this level, but if you think your job as a pilot is to simply fly the plane it may not be for you.

At Netjets they expect two things from their pilots: Performance and Attitude. Netjets will tell you that safety is number one and they mean it. In the year that I have been here I have seen numerous examples where the company has put safety before customer consideration. So you must be able to meet the performance standards.

Attitude is also important. Fourteen hour days are not uncommon and you will be expected to deliver the same level of service on the last leg as you did on the first. On the plus side the company is smart enough to realize that the level of service expected by our owners, at the end of the day, is delivered by the pilots. The company will go to extraordinary measures to help us deliver. If you visit Columbus take a tour of the Operations center. Half the people support the customers. Guess what the other half do? They support the pilots. I don’t recall too many of those at Comair.

The bus driver also has the advantage of a fixed schedule. As a limo driver you work schedule is subject to constant change. There are only two things you can be sure of: the company will not touch you on your days off and you will get at least 10 hours of rest each day. But unlike Comair you will find yourself in situations where you are available to the company but not on duty as far as rest is concerned. Its complicated so let me use an example.

Say you finish a trip at 4 in the afternoon. The company tells you that you will be starting you next trip at 10 am the next morning. So far, so good. But according to our contract the company can (and often does) call you out ten hours later (at 2 am) for a trip. So what do you do? Do you go to sleep at 4 (assuming that you can) in order to be awake for 2 or plan to sleep later for the 10 show? The problem is that your14 hours of duty commence when the company calls you, not at the end of your rest period.

If they call you at 2 its possible that you may not have had sufficient sleep. Now let’s say you go to sleep immediately and awake at 2 am but you don’t start until 10. Now its possible for you to be awake for 22 hours (8 + 14) before you next rest period.

Does this sound like a fatigue issue? You bet it is, but here’s the big difference between Comair and Netjets. If you tell Netjets you are too tired to fly then that’s the end of the story. The company does not want you to fly fatigued. Work rules in the Comair contract are more stringent but I believe they are there because they need to be.

Bottom line: For me the disadvantages of working at Comair had everything to do with how the company treated us and little to do with the nature of the business. At Netjets the disadvantages are all related to the nature of the business which the company does its best to minimize. I love it, but its not for everyone.

Good Luck.

 

[Schaevola]

Full bulleye Ozpilot, and thank you for daring to be honest. Plus I believe that you are too kind and gentleman. There are so many posts from NJA people who's job is just to do NJA's propaganda. Maybe they don't have to face customers first and fly the plane second after you were bitched at for few good minutes by so called millionaires who don't give a d#$n about you. Maybe they do their flying from Bridgway offices using internet as planes because by the amount of being on internet it makes me wonder when they have the time to do some actual flying. But that's just my observation.
The only good part for being a pilot at NJA is that they provide you with 3 meals per day. But you have to pay a lot for those 3 meals. When you are on the road your back belongs to the company for 14 hours a day. You just keep going and going and going. Frustrating multiple changes shouldn't upset you because you are out. After few days like that(without end) finaly your last day is coming. You want to go home and kiss your wife and kids and scream "Honey I'm home!". NOOOO! They play with you untill
last minute. That hurts.
Somebody was talking about variety flying at NJA? Yeh! Right! It's a pleasure to go to remote airfields without any kind of services and wait for hours just looking to a guy who believes your Ultra is some kind of spaceship.
And to finish this, I strongly believe that in the same way an employer is looking to find ways in using us as much as possible and pay us as little as possible; on the same token is our duty as pilots to find companies where the work is as little as possible and pay is as much as possible. NJA is not on my list.
I understand all the Comair guys who because of the strike have switched companies. Everybody has to do what has to do to provide for his family. But one can not be compared with the other. Comair runs an airline type of business under part 121 rules. NJA runs a part 135 type of business under the part 91 cover. For Comair you are an Airline Pilot; for NJA I don't know. Maybe a customer agent in charge of cleaning the potty.

 

[Majik]

Schaevola,
You really should not smoke crack and try to type on the computer. It brings out the bitterness in you.
1st you tell ozpilot how much you admire him, then, at the bottom of your post, you tell him he's not a real pilot, maybe just a customer agent in charge of cleaning a potty. Sounds like a mixed message to me. I'm not sure he appreciated your comparison.
OK, things didn't work out for you at NJA and they let you go. Get over it and get on with your life. Remember, it's not a sin to fall, but it is a sin not to try and get back up...

 

[Schaevola]

I hope Majik that are not too many like you out there. But if they are I have to make myself clear.
I appreciate Ozpilot for his honesty. I am sure NJA has many pilots like him but they just don't wonder too much on this webb page. The last part of my previous post was not referring to him. It was an answer to the original question of this thread. Comair vs. Fractionals.

All I want to point is this. NJA is a company like any other company where a pilot can sell his knowledge for pecuniary remuneration. Unfortunately NJA PAYS THE WORST IN INDUSTRY. So...when I keep reading all this propaganda coming from all kind of so called pilots with so many inside scoops about the company it makes me wonder about their honesty.
And because I am a believer in "Money talks, BS walks" I try to cut their cr@p out a little bit.
We live difficult times right now, and I don't like to see people happy because AA/DL/UA or any other major furloughing pilots. Bottom line is that the best life as a pilot is to fly for a Major. It pays the best and has the best schedule. So don't you NJA come and dare to say that you guys with your 27k a year are the best in industry.
Before 9/11 nobody wanted to come and work for you. Now after 9/11 because some how you keep hiring. People need jobs to provide to their families. So they knock at your door. It is normal. But this doesn't make you the best and ironic toward other less fortunate economical. One year from now on it could be the other way around. Aviation since its starting moments has been crazy. 15 years ago an Eastern or PanAM pilot would have never dreamed to lose his job. So if it has happened before what makes think will not happen again.
So anytime anybody asks for suggestions from NJA people just tell them your experience and stop tell them to come over because at NJA is Heaven on Earth and honey is flying through Bridgeway's halls.
You are just a company what is hiring FOR NOW. That's it. Your pay sucks. Your schedule sucks. If something better is coming people will go overthere.

 

[flyingdog]

Good job Schaevola

 

[Diesel]

Let me all explain where Schaevola is coming from. I believe i met him on the road the other day and it explains why he is such a bitter little man.

We were on the road and this guy comes up to us and asks if we know such and such. He's actually a friend of mine so I say we do. He tells us to say he says hi and that he used to work at nja.

I am a curious guy so I start prodding. He starts talking about eja and how they screw everyone so I prod some more. He ends up just telling me he quit.

SO i decide to find out the other side of the story. His friends says that mr. Schaevola was making some creative expense reports. He would take a hotel receipt that they slid under the door then complain and have the hotel take it off his card.

This and other creative expensing got him fired. That's why he didn't pay the training contract.

Now I don't know if it Schaevola is him but the bitterness sounds just like him.

 

[gump88]

Yea D,

I heard about this guy.

As far as the regionals versus NJA, I was with Midway for 3 years, 2000 hours in the CL 65. I had an interview with Comair during the same week I started indoc with NJA. I told Comair "thanks, but no thanks." I am very happy at NJA! I am having 5 times as much fun on the Ultra as I was on the CL 65!!!! I admit that I miss the APU and 22 YO FA!!! lol After 10 years with the regionals, CCAir, AE, Midway, I have found my home. And I am not being paid to say this!!!!!!!!!

Make the right decision for yourself.

gump

 

[warehouse]

I absolutely agree that coming to NJA after being furloughed from Midway was the right choice for me. I had opportunities to go to ACA or Comair since already being qualified in the RJ, and chose the fractional path.

I have worked for the regionals - Eagle and Midway, and can say in the short 8 months that I have been here, that the future at NJA is very bright.

There are too many differences in the type of flying and customer service responsibilities at a fractional than at a regional to mention here, but if you do enjoy overniting one day in Jackson Hole, and the next in Nantucket for example, this may be for you.

Yes the main negative currently is substandard pay, but if you are considering coming to NJA, don't wait to apply after the raise is complete. With 5000 applicants a month, that number will increase.

As for schedule, I have had the last 21 days off, allowing me to pick up a side job, spent more time than I ever had at home, and play some golf.

Yes there are lots of airline guys and gals here who will always jump at the chance at flying the heavy iron at a major, or leave because they can't handle the idea of having to actually talk to passengers and clean up after them. Well this job isn't for everyone, but I tell ya, it is a stable company that will treat you well.

I could never understand why there is always so much animosity among pilots - fly safe, be happy.

 

[abenaki]

Schaevola,

Obviously you a have a bone to pick with NJA.....that' s OK.....I flew for Comair for 6 years and despise the managment and their tactics that I worked under their for nearly all of those 6 years. They were maliscious in their intent to hurt the union and the individual pilots in it without regard, in my opinion, to any kind of ethics whatsoever.

However, I don't get the part about "NJA's propaganda"...what are you talking about? I know of about 50 Comair pilots who, like me, had some fairly senior positions over there who made the conscious decision to NOT go back. ANd that was well before 911. We all did that for our own reasons, but I'd bet money that not one of us made the decision we did without taking into the kind of treatment and atmosphere that exists here that is a FAR cry from what abuse we were subjected to over there. From the HR department helping me with the medical provider, to the assistant pm who helped me get home the other day (with two days extended pay to boot due to a scheduling problem), to the payroll lady who helped me today on my forthcoming check, to the lady who reviews the expense reports, some excellent flight managers, and even the friendly guy who runs the company cafeteria, it is truly a PLEASURE to be here. That's not propaganda, that's just the way I've experienced it.

Re' the 14 hour days....Uh, hello, that's the job sometimes. If you didn't know that going in, shame on you. And furthermore, I had plenty of 16 hour days at Comair where management was holding a gun to my head to continue. At NJA 14 hours is 14 hours.......you don't see many people running over that very often. And managment doesn't WANT you to go over that. And I've had lots of tours with a day off here and there and some VERY short days. And I'm in one of the hardest working fleets.
And I get more days off than the average Comair pilot. And once I get the 7/7 schedule, I'll be better off more than most Comair pilots. So don't tell me that our schedule "sucks" here. I've been at both places and I doubt that with my seniority at Comair that I'd be getting more days off than I am now at NJA.

Variety of flying. Another, DUH, to you.......Ah, hello, McFLy......being able to go into small airports is why these people pay millions for the services that the frac companies provide......You expect your Ultra to go into the major airline hubs? And by the way, my last tour was EWR, BDL, DAL, APA, SDL, BUR, OAK......not exactly places without services. Most of the time these FBO's provide great service, facilities and food. Certainly a lot better than the average public airline facility.

"FOR COMAIR YOUR ARE AN AIRLINE PILOT, FOR NJA, I DON'T KNOW....MAYBE A CUSTOMER SERVICE AGENT IN CHARGE OF CLEANING THE POTTY"......

Frankly, I take that remark as an insult. I was an airline pilot at Comair and frankly, I'm a better pilot now as a result of my training and experience at NJA. Going into Telluride or Aspen takes a bit different skill than shooting the same approach into CVG time after time. Not better, just different. And the experience I have at NJA has broadened my skill pool, if you will. By your statement, am I no longer "as good" as I was when I was an "airline pilot" over at Comair?

Pay......Ah, hello again........I doubt very seriously that the starting pay at Comair is equal to that of NJA and I doubt that under current conditions, a new hire at COmair will keep pace with that of the salaries over here and that's after we went out on strike for 89 days. And doess't take into account the next contract here. Yes, the pay is low...no doubt about that. But, the quality of life is vastly different here from the cater crew meals to the hotels.......

I don't know how you got burned at NJA, but my guess is that you burnt yourself. I've looked into the stories behind many a resignation and firing here and usually there is a pretty darned good reason as to why the person got booted. What was yours?

 

[Lifestyle]

shaevola,
Dude your a tool. I've made more money my first year at EJA than I ever made as a senior captain at the regionals. 27K where do you get that number. That's starting base pay although everyone on property is on Captains pay with a base of 38k and all will make 50k there first year. Get the facts. Call me a limo driver but I sure love my life more now than when I was a bus driver on the 727. Everybody beats to a different drum. Yours must be broken.

 

[FL450]

Shaevola,

I won't badmouth you or attack you for your bitterness...........just simply say, "I'm glad you're not part of the Netjets team".