Comair to Vote on Growth in Exchange for PAY CUTS!

[Bluto]

If it wasn't for all the sh!t contracts that have been signed in the last couple years, this proposal wouldn't have gotten this far.

If this passes don't blame the CMR pilots.. blame yourself.

So when it happened to everyone else, it was because of their lack of moral fortitude. When it happens to you, it's because of everyone else's lack of moral fortitude.
Were you even working for Comair during the strike that you seem so willing to take credit for?

 

[Rhoid]

So when it happened to everyone else, it was because of their lack of moral fortitude. When it happens to you, it's because of everyone else's lack of moral fortitude.
Were you even working for Comair during the strike that you seem so willing to take credit for?

He probably wasn't even working at Colgan yet. He was probably some wet behind the ears CFI, dreaming of the day he'd be a big, bad major airline pilot at Comair!

 

[chperplt]

He probably wasn't even working at Colgan yet. He was probably some wet behind the ears CFI, dreaming of the day he'd be a big, bad major airline pilot at Comair

Oh that's real funny Hemorrhoid.

While you were jerking off in your 172, I was protecting this country flying in the US Army. By the looks of your experience, you were the wet behind the ears CFI..

Why don't you continue to work your way towards a major, one blowjob at a time.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Vote No!!!!!

 

[wrigley23]

Oh that's real funny Hemorrhoid.

While you were jerking off in your 172, I was protecting this country flying in the US Army. By the looks of your experience, you were the wet behind the ears CFI..

Why don't you continue to work your way towards a major, one blowjob at a time.

Dammit you made me snort my freshly cracked beer out of my nose!

 

[chperplt]

Sorry man..

 

[CarjCapt]

vote NO

Based on what I read and heard I would vote NO, if I could.

However, I believe that it will pass by at least 50% plus 1 vote because of the Junior pilots (all the ones hired after 911) and some Senior pilots.

This will be caused by the belief that Comair is still a stepping stone airline and not a career airline even though there was 89 days that changed that stepping stone mind set.

 

[General Lee]

Growth helps 3/4 of the pilot group, all of the FO's and the junior Captains who want a "life" or better QOL. The senior Captains only look at the dollars, often because they will never leave the airline. That's what happened to the SkyWest guys, and it will happen again.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[Beaver_Liquors]

Exactly, couldn't have said it better myself.........

Thats right guys, your already passing the blame on to someone else! you know none of us guys might not be in this mess if you all got your heads out of your as*es and didnt stike for 90 days. FOr what, your great industry leading contract (ACA + 1% at the time). Look what has happened since then? CHQ MESA TSA being used to whipsaw all of us now. You guys at Comair really need to stop trying to save the industy, its not helping

BL

 

[FlyChicaga]

What we've learned in this thread:

Management somehow has managed to grab us firmly by the balls, and pit every pilot group against one another like some old college football rivarlies. It's like you're going to set fire to your neighbors car since he works for your "rival" airline. Hell, many of you fighting probably don't realize that you went to the same schools, served in the same branch of the military, or came from the same defunct airline at some point.

So much for brotherhood.

 

[737 Pylt]

What we've learned in this thread:

Management somehow has managed to grab us firmly by the balls, and pit every pilot group against one another like some old college football rivarlies. It's like you're going to set fire to your neighbors car since he works for your "rival" airline. Hell, many of you fighting probably don't realize that you went to the same schools, served in the same branch of the military, or came from the same defunct airline at some point.

So much for brotherhood.

That's exactly right. Its the "all about me" attitude that will keep this industry's management pukes rollin in the dough all the way to the bank! This is just a job any more to me!
737

 

[InclusiveScope]

That's exactly right. Its the "all about me" attitude that will keep this industry's management pukes rollin in the dough all the way to the bank! This is just a job any more to me!
737

When those "management pukes" get to the bank, they will have to stand in line behind Duane W. ALPA is promoting this "all about me" attitude. Leadership starts at the top.

 

[FarginDooshbahg]

WAH, WAAAHHH, WWAAAAAAHHHHH!!

ALPA this, ALPA that. It's always easier to point the finger and blame others than to look in the mirror at the real problem.

 

[InclusiveScope]

WAH, WAAAHHH, WWAAAAAAHHHHH!!

ALPA this, ALPA that. It's always easier to point the finger and blame others than to look in the mirror at the real problem.

Fargin,

I'll make this really simple so you can understand. Collective bargaining only works if you bargain as a SINGLE COLLECTIVE group. If you bargain as 3 or 4 or 5 separate groups all competing for work from the SAME employer, you will NEVER succeed. Collective bargaining and bidding as "independent contractors" is INCOMPATABLE. Either change it or accept it, those are your options.

 

[DAL737FO]

Based on what I read and heard I would vote NO, if I could.

However, I believe that it will pass by at least 50% plus 1 vote because of the Junior pilots (all the ones hired after 911) and some Senior pilots.

This will be caused by the belief that Comair is still a stepping stone airline and not a career airline even though there was 89 days that changed that stepping stone mind set.

How do you figure this will be because of the junior guys? Just curious, because it would seem that the junior guys are going to be the ones sold out in this deal. Let me see if I have the basics correct. The company is offering you guys extra aircraft and some additional large aircraft in exchange for a pay freeze. Boy I can just see those 2nd, 3rd or 4th year First Officers lining up to vote yes on this one. What is a Captain that is either at or near the max pay giving up? That would be a real hard decision.

B-727 Freight Dawg
I mean MD-88 FO
who knows what tomorrow will bring

 

[FlyChicaga]

Why must you look at Duane Woerth as some sort of Roman Emperor, who commands the masses? He is the President of a union. Yes, leadership comes from the top. But the faultering of the organization comes from the membership.

The problems with ALPA are not solely because of the leadership. The leadership guides the pilot groups the direction they choose to take. Last time I checked, Duane Woerth couldn't vote on the Mesa, Comair, or any other (besides NWA) contract.

When you point fingers at ALPA, realize you are pointing the blame at yourself. That's because YOU are ALPA. Once everyone gives up this "me, me, me; mine, mine, mine" attitude, maybe we can begin to work in unity across company lines for a solution to this ever degrading industry. The paint scheme does not matter. It's the pay, quality of life, and your time off work that matters. Right now those are all suffering because of this infighting between pilot groups. We have let "work" take over our lives.

 

[Slim]

If you are a member of an ALPA-represented pilot group, look at the signature block of your PWA. One of the required signatures is that of the national president. Right now, that's Duane Woerth(less). While he can't vote, he has enough input to kill an agreement, should one be approved by this pilot group.

So, FlyChicaga, ALPA National leadership has a role in this. I have not been to a road show yet to see what, if any, response/input has come from the national level. I agree, however, that local participation is essential.

I communicated my concerns to members of my MEC. There were three specific points I wanted addressed. Only one (the least important of the three) was addressed in any manner. The other two, so far as I can tell, received little attention, if any. The absence of one of the two issues is enough to make me vote against it.

However, I won't make a decision until I have as much information as I can get my hands on.

Fly safe!

 

[HawkDrvr]

I'd like to pose a question. While everyone throws around blame for the current state of the industry I would like to interject a thought and see what people think. I realize that hindsight is often 20/20, but where would we be now if the mainline unions would have scoped regional jets only to be flown by mainline ???

Seems to me that this was the biggest give-away by pilot unions ever... What do you guys think ?

 

[FlyChicaga]

While he can't vote, he has enough input to kill an agreement, should one be approved by this pilot group.

So, FlyChicaga, ALPA National leadership has a role in this.

Why should he kill an agreement? If it is voted upon by the majority membership of the pilot group, then he is saying "Ok, this is what you want, then this is what you get." It may not be in the best interest of the piloting profession as a whole, but he is backing the membership and their decisions.

I'm not saying that ALPA leadership is not partly to blame. What's going on is these pilot groups infighting within ALPA, each trying to undercut each other with pay and work rule concessions to get the upper hand. Instead of the leadership saying, "Enough is enough, let's think about this" they are backing the decisions of each group.

So which is better? Be supportive of the decisions of the ALPA membership on their own futures, or take an authoritative role and direct the groups where they (leadership) think we need to go?

Basically, would you rather dictate your own future, or would you like it to be chosen for you by Dwane Woerth et al?

I'd rather have a say in dictating my own future in this career, with the strength and backing of ALPA. The only problem is, the collective membership of various pilot groups seem to think the only way to go is backwards... so, what to do? Honestly, the best answer is to educate. But there isn't much of that going on. We are all too busy scrambling to fight for our piece of the pie, only looking out for #1.

 

[FlyChicaga]

I'd like to pose a question. While everyone throws around blame for the current state of the industry I would like to interject a thought and see what people think. I realize that hindsight is often 20/20, but where would we be now if the mainline unions would have scoped regional jets only to be flown by mainline ???

Seems to me that this was the biggest give-away by pilot unions ever... What do you guys think ?

Exactly. If mainline would have swallowed their pride and assimiliated the regionals into their own, as allies instead of enemies, a lot of problems would have been averted. Look now... we are at a crossroads. Majors and regionals both fighting to fly the same equipment. Regionals right now are management's wet dream... the ultimate B-scale.

 

[Axel]

I'd like to pose a question. While everyone throws around blame for the current state of the industry I would like to interject a thought and see what people think. I realize that hindsight is often 20/20, but where would we be now if the mainline unions would have scoped regional jets only to be flown by mainline ???

Seems to me that this was the biggest give-away by pilot unions ever... What do you guys think ?

Spot-on. Everyone seems to ignore this fact.

 

[General Lee]

So, why not blame ALPA for everything? Afterwards, you can all pat each other on the back for passing blame, and then all join a circle jerk. I guess ALPA should have scoped anything that had more than one engine too...... Face it, the competition sets the pay rates, and the company (DL) will try to get costs down and stay competitive. We at mainline took a hit, and now they are going after you, and you can either play their game or SkyWest and Chautaqua will get the growth. Heck, they will probably get it anyway because they can actually afford to buy the aircraft..... Time to roll the dice boys...... Good luck.



Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[JI Gone OH]

We Don't Need Another Hero

You guys at Comair really need to stop trying to save the industy, its not helping

BL

Yeah, quit trying to save the world. Wait, I work for that company... Nevermind

 

[doh]

General, I think you miss the point. ALPA did screw up big time back in the 80's by allowing outsourcing. This mess will have to be cleaned up by 1) spending negotiating capital to get the flying back in house gradually. No new planes to outsourcing, in which case people will apply to move over. Or 2) spending negotiating capital to merge lists in some manner. Of course we can just ignore the problem until there is no career left for those who follow. No answer is very satisfying in our life times, but I really believe, with out trying to grab seniority, that we as a union are going to have to face this down, and soon. JMHO. Oh, and I think it's going to cost more to fix this problem than it would have to prevent it, but it's too late now.

 

[CheapFlyer]

we as a union are going to have to face this down, and soon. JMHO. Oh, and I think it's going to cost more to fix this problem than it would have to prevent it, but it's too late now.

Since it hasn't happened by now, I don't think it will ever happen. This alter-ego problem has existed and grown thru both good economic times and a bad recession. Our time as a union to pull us all together was during the last round of mainline concessions. They could have given up the pay cut that management really needed ONLY if they brought all the company branded planes and pilots in-house. Duaene Worthless can talk about a 'brand scope' solution all day long, but no one is willing to put the effort in to make a workable solution.
Each regional airline pilot group is on his own. The mainline driven ALPA has done nothing, and will continue to do nothing in the hopes that this fundamental problem will just go away.

-CF

 

[jarhead]

right on

 

[V-1]

Not to try to bring this thread back on topic, but one of the strongest selling points this opportunity presents to the Comair pilot group (beyond additional aircraft) is the establishment of a guaranteed minimum number of aircraft the company (or any successor should Comair be sold) must operate in revenue service...instant furlough protection for not only the 1800 pilots currently on the seniority list, but also any future pilots hired as a result of growth the opportunity offers.

There is no such language in the current Working Agreement. With Comair shackled to a ship struggling to stay afloat, stronger successorship language and a guaranteed minimum number of aircraft that must be operated should have significant value to all Comair Pilots...irrespective of seat or seniority.

As someone noted earlier, the most vocal voices on this thread tend not to be Comair pilots. Comair pilots have held the bar high for several years now while no one else has been able to equal it, let alone raise it. I don't believe it is the job of the Comair pilot group to carry every other pilot group out there.

If the LOA passes, Comair pilots will still be compensated better than anyone else out there, excepting Horizon and perhaps Express Jet.

It's time for Comair pilots to do what every pilot group must ultimately do...make a decision about the future of their airline and their pilot group. Pilots from other airlines who feel the need to criticize any decision made by the Comair pilot group would be better served by focusing their efforts on areas they have some control over...like their own Working Agreement.

 

[jarhead]

Great Post, V-1. I think you've nailed it.

 

[Palerider957]

Not to try to bring this thread back on topic, but one of the strongest selling points this opportunity presents to the Comair pilot group (beyond additional aircraft) is the establishment of a guaranteed minimum number of aircraft the company (or any successor should Comair be sold) must operate in revenue service...instant furlough protection for not only the 1800 pilots currently on the seniority list, but also any future pilots hired as a result of growth the opportunity offers.

There is no such language in the current Working Agreement. With Comair shackled to a ship struggling to stay afloat, stronger successorship language and a guaranteed minimum number of aircraft that must be operated should have significant value to all Comair Pilots...irrespective of seat or seniority.

As someone noted earlier, the most vocal voices on this thread tend not to be Comair pilots. Comair pilots have held the bar high for several years now while no one else has been able to equal it, let alone raise it. I don't believe it is the job of the Comair pilot group to carry every other pilot group out there.

If the LOA passes, Comair pilots will still be compensated better than anyone else out there, excepting Horizon and perhaps Express Jet.

It's time for Comair pilots to do what every pilot group must ultimately do...make a decision about the future of their airline and their pilot group. Pilots from other airlines who feel the need to criticize any decision made by the Comair pilot group would be better served by focusing their efforts on areas they have some control over...like their own Working Agreement.

I agree it's not your job to carry the industry, especially when so many are so weak.

However, if you think you can gain "minimum flying," and "furlough protection," just ask the DAL pilots how a "no furlough" clause worked for them. These sorts of management guarantees are intangible, and subject to extreme manipulation. The DAL group was promised that there would no management bonusses, what happened? Something like 300K of DAL stock was given.

But I suspect I'm not telling you anything you don't already know.

 

[Palerider957]

Any airline management will never agree to a contract it can't readily violate at it's convenience.

The management clowns at DAL are especially proud of this.