Comair Pilots - WARNING, WARNING!

[~~~^~~~]

Fins

I've read the quote several times I can't seem to find where he lied!!!

There has never been any seniority integration plan put forward by the ASA, or Comair MEC. That was a lie designed to separate pilots along ALPA apartied lines. I am tired of hearing the lie repeated.

The collective bargaining process is apparently under attack by the same "Freddie smooth talk" who promoted the portfolio of carriers concept to begin with. Comair's new President has been quoted in the press - talking about 90 seat jets. That is a violation of the Delta PWA.

"On Your Six" comes along like the mainline hatemonger he is and starts slamming the Comair MEC. Is On Your Six too stupid to realize that ALPA is all that has kept the uppidty RJ pilots on the Plantation to begin with? Undermining ALPA while he is on furlough, in favor of a management team that wants scope busting airplanes at Comair is foolish.

But then again, this whole mentality that separates our union in to fractions is foolish.

~~~^~~~

 

[michael707767]

There has never been any seniority integration plan put forward by the ASA, or Comair MEC. That was a lie designed to separate pilots along ALPA apartied lines. I am tired of hearing the lie repeated.

you know what, there may not have been any plan put forward by either the ASA or CMR MEC. I really don't care. But I know for a fact (had more than one on the jumpseat) that there were individual ASA and CMR pilots running around saying they were going to get DOH integration and be bidding the 767 soon. And for the record, I don't remember the Delta MEC ever saying that DOH (or any specific integration) had been asked for. They did (correctly) point out that if we could not agree on an integration, it would end up in arbitration, where anything was possible.

 

[skydiverdriver]

So, you believe we should all be punished because of what a few idiots believed a long time ago? The Delta pilots could have solved all of their problems with a simple attempt at trying the PID. They are the ones that stonewalled us.


Our MEC has never stonewalled anybody. Whoever thinks this is just misinformed.

 

[OPECJet]

9rj, if you're so in love with the growth of CHQ, then apply. It sounds to me you're more worried about getting off reserve and a quick upgrade than anything else.

The pilot group at Comair set an example with the strike that the rest of us should applaud. They made the airline a place that a pilot could spend his career if he chose to do so. Something very important in this day.

The days of spending a few years in the regionals and then moving on to a high paying career at the majors are over. You need to realize this, and strive to improve the wages and working conditions at your carrier, rather than cave in to management in the hopes that they will buy you a few more shiny new jets.

 

[spinproof]

There has never been any seniority integration plan put forward by the ASA, or Comair MEC. That was a lie designed to separate pilots along ALPA apartied lines. I am tired of hearing the lie repeated.

The collective bargaining process is apparently under attack by the same "Freddie smooth talk" who promoted the portfolio of carriers concept to begin with. Comair's new President has been quoted in the press - talking about 90 seat jets. That is a violation of the Delta PWA.

"On Your Six" comes along like the mainline hatemonger he is and starts slamming the Comair MEC. Is On Your Six too stupid to realize that ALPA is all that has kept the uppidty RJ pilots on the Plantation to begin with? Undermining ALPA while he is on furlough, in favor of a management team that wants scope busting airplanes at Comair is foolish.

But then again, this whole mentality that separates our union in to fractions is foolish.

~~~^~~~

Yes division is stupid. So in good faith why doesn't the "old" Mec resign now to show unity? Bring on new faces for a new start to a bitter campaign that will be waged by "B-1" Buttrell.

They won't! Because it's not a matter of unity, to them it's a matter of EGO! In there belies the problem and the antimosity they have spread since,and before, the last contract! The sheer arrogance displayed by this group attemps to fracture a determined pilot group and only serves their interest.

They didn't win the "Battle star",this pilot group did, and I can assure anyone willing to put them to a test, it will be won again!

 

[michael707767]

So, you believe we should all be punished because of what a few idiots believed a long time ago? The Delta pilots could have solved all of their problems with a simple attempt at trying the PID. They are the ones that stonewalled us.
.

I never said you should be punished. And for the record, I think the Delta MEC screwed up big time in not trying the PID. I don't think it would have worked, ultimately management has the final decision, but we should have tried. My point is if you want to blame someone for the rumors about seeking a DOH merger, look within your own pilot group. There were certainly some big mouths running around, and we didn't know if they were just a couple of loose cannons or if thats what you would ultimately be seeking. Also, I think if your MECs had come out and said you would not be seeking DOH, there was a whole a better chance it would have happened. No matter how you look at it, it was not handled very well.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Spinproof,

Didn't you just elect new LEC officers? Sounds like the pilot group has spoken.

If you are really so upset with your MEC leadership -- well the ALPA constitution and bylaws have a recall process in place. Why complain on a message board? Go to your next LEC meeting and start the recall process if you're so displeased.

 

[spinproof]

Spinproof,

Didn't you just elect new LEC officers? Sounds like the pilot group has spoken.

If you are really so upset with your MEC leadership -- well the ALPA constitution and bylaws have a recall process in place. Why complain on a message board? Go to your next LEC meeting and start the recall process if you're so displeased.

Yes there is a new LEC and they are split on the MEC vote. A new Sec/treas was elected and the old MEC and its allies on the new LEC said it was done out of order. Thus putting this whole process in recess.

I say again when you put personal interest and politics above service you are not doing your fiduciary duty and should resign!

This pilot group has spoken. This MEC fails to listen.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

That doesn't quite make sense...

Your NEW LEC should not have a vote on whether to reelect the currence MEC chair and vice-chair.

That should be done by the old LEC. ALPA did that on purpose to prevent a coup'

That is why I suggested that if you dont like the results of that election, then you begin the recall process.

I would venture that if the recall process has not begun then either the Comair pilots have NOT spoken, or the vast majority of them simply dont agree with you.

I wouldn't count on elected leadership to step down unless you go through the process -- and that means getting the majority of your 1800 pilots on board.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Spinproof:

Interesting points. The "Candidate" for MEC Chairman is really an excellent guy. I try to stay out of MEC politics on web boards. but your thoughts are very well taken.

Regardless of the outcome of the MEC realignment, Freddie Smooth Talk should not be trying to circumvent ALPA. It is a dangerous precedent and a further destabilization of an already explosive situation.

Delta has really gone over the cliff on financing without using bankruptcy to preserve cash. I think the days of fee for departure are nearing an end and the CRJ200 is potentially a gas guzzling white elephant now that mainline carriers are bring prices down to LCC levels, even in markets that would never support a low cost cherry picker. Management will cut the only cost they can, labor, as low as they can and then lower ticket prices in a never ending spiral trying to beat other alter ego carriers who are doing the same thing. Somebody has to stand and support the profession. Comair, ASA is with you.

~~~^~~~

 

[~~~^~~~]

you know what, there may not have been any plan put forward by either the ASA or CMR MEC. I really don't care. But I know for a fact (had more than one on the jumpseat) that there were individual ASA and CMR pilots running around saying they were going to get DOH integration

Thanks for the validation. Who cares what individual pilots want? There are probably a few individual Delta pilots who would like to see the RJDC supporters shot and used for fill dirt under the new south runway in Atlanta. I don't take it personally, or feel threatened, or try to paint the entire Delta pilot group with that brush.

Bottom line is that the "portfolio" concept of alter ego airlines is a terrible idea for labor and management. ASA and Comair have no real allegience to the Delta brand's performance. We fly empty legs on fee for departure arrangements and call it a "profit." We retire efficient aircraft and replace them with less suitable airplanes ( on short routes especially ) to try to meet a Delta mandate. A legion of middle level managers are busy figuring out how to bill another Delta entity for lav dumps and bug washes, while aircraft and crew utilization goes wasted because we do not fly eachother's exactly similar equipment. At one point Comair had over $1,100,000.00 in yearly hotel costs at ASA's main domicile.

The RJDC leadership, Comair and ASA MEC's and their pilots had the right idea with the PID. All the other crap about some flight attendant's, second cousin's, jumpseater heard from someone in the training department that an ATR Captain was going to displace a 777 driver does not matter. It might have helped galvanize the Delta pilots for C2K, but that fight is over and the ASA pilots were never your enemy.

~~~^~~~

 

[Caveman]

I think people are way overreacting to this. There's a new CEO in town and he wants to hear from the rank and file about what's going on. The meetings are not targeted at pilots and flight attendants. They are being held throughout the company. I'll be attending one of the meetings. I'm not interested in giving him my 2 cents regarding concessions for growth. If he wants to know how I feel about scheduling, well, that's a different story. Our MEC is free to attend also but they are boycotting it on the grounds that their request/demand to meet privately with the new CEO has, thus far, been ignored......for a whole 4 days. The guy just got here on Monday. They, like many on this thread, seem to think that it's an end run to avoid meeting with the MEC and that us stupid line pilots will fall prey to their psychological games and unanimously rise up in support of concessions. Please.....It's just a freaking intro to the boss meeting. I'll try and stave off their PsyOps while I'm there.

 

[spinproof]

That doesn't quite make sense...

Your NEW LEC should not have a vote on whether to reelect the currence MEC chair and vice-chair.

.

You are correct I miss-wrote and I don't count on them stepping down or being re-called. There is a growing unrest with this MEC and it will not go away. They will not endorse pilot ratification( should there need to be one) and that is a problem along with their poor communication skills!

 

[Caveman]

Nevertheless, the elections of the new MEC are deadlocked. They'll meet again on Monday. I'm not optimistic about a breakthrough.

 

[Heavy Set]

That is not true.


Consider the challenge made, put up one cintilla of proof of what you wrote, or everyone will simply know you for what you are.

I actually spoke to a senior Comair Captian who told me thatverbatim (he expected to be merged into the DAL list according todate-of-hire)about 5-6 years ago (pre 9-11). No joke - he wasvery serious. You can slam Six all you want but I haveactually heard it myself.

 

[michael707767]

The RJDC leadership, Comair and ASA MEC's and their pilots had the right idea with the PID. ... It might have helped galvanize the Delta pilots for C2K, but that fight is over and the ASA pilots were never your enemy.

~~~^~~~

The PID may have been the right idea, but the execution was poor. And I don't know of any Delta pilot who considered the ASA pilots our enemy. Now CMR pilots.....thats another issue.

 

[chperplt]

Now CMR pilots.....thats another issue

The words of a true asshole!!!!

You sound like the captain that didn't want me on his jumpseat last Monday.. "I don't want any of you guys on my jumpseat" were his exact words. Until you fire your MEC, you are all a bunch of sh!t heads......

You have to be a complete asshole when your FO and FAs keep apologizing for you.

When are you going to realize we're not your enemy??

 

[michael707767]

The words of a true asshole!!!!

When are you going to realize we're not your enemy??

asshole huh? Ok, if you say so. Not the enemy? Guess that's why you were so helpful with getting our furloughed guys jobs. You could not even keep your mouths shut about hiring furloughed Delta pilots. I'm not saying you should have been fighting for it, or given our guys pref hiring, but your MEC could not even just stay silent about it. The ASA pilots have been terrific during this whole thing, and the furloughed guys I have talked too that ended up at ASA say they have been very well received.

 

[chperplt]

Fine.. blame our MEC. There are plenty of pilots on the CMR list that were not around then and have nothing to do with your gripe.

Blaming me and taking your anger out on me makes you an asshole. Making a blanket statement that all CMR pilots are your enemy makes you ignorant and very short sighted.

 

[michael707767]

Fine.. blame our MEC. There are plenty of pilots on the CMR list that were not around then and have nothing to do with your gripe.

Blaming me and taking your anger out on me makes you an asshole. Making a blanket statement that all CMR pilots are your enemy makes you ignorant and very short sighted.

I didn't blame you and I fully realize that there are pilots at CMR who were not even there when some things happened. Jeez, don't take everything so literally.

 

[spinproof]

asshole huh? Ok, if you say so. Not the enemy? Guess that's why you were so helpful with getting our furloughed guys jobs. You could not even keep your mouths shut about hiring furloughed Delta pilots. I'm not saying you should have been fighting for it, or given our guys pref hiring, but your MEC could not even just stay silent about it. The ASA pilots have been terrific during this whole thing, and the furloughed guys I have talked too that ended up at ASA say they have been very well received.

Just curious...how many furloughed pilots went to ASA..do you know?

 

[Heavy Set]

Just curious...how many furloughed pilots went to ASA..do you know?

I know one of the DAL furloughees who went to ASA - he is very gratefulto have a job. I am not sure about the total number offurloughees flying for ASA now. At least ASA provided theopportunity when he needed it.

 

[chperplt]

Mike,

How can I take things less literally when you put it in such a way?

We need to work together to right the ship..

 

[StaySeated]

Can we please put this sh1t to rest?

Why is it that every single thread about comair turns into a pissing match with the same handful of gents? DAL guys are furloughed, that sucks. No pilot decided to furlough them, and no pilot decided to hire them at another airline. The moderators should rename the regional section "whiney b1tches". GMAFB already. It was annoying about a year ago, now its just embarrassing.

 

[CarjCapt]

I actually spoke to a senior Comair Captian who told me thatverbatim (he expected to be merged into the DAL list according todate-of-hire)about 5-6 years ago (pre 9-11). No joke - he wasvery serious. You can slam Six all you want but I haveactually heard it myself.

That is "hear say" not proof. Do you have in writing on official MEC ALPA letter head? If you do show us. You wouldn't win in court with your evidence.

 

[surplus1]

Michael707767,

First of all this is (or was intended to be) a discussion about a current and specific event at Comair. It's not about the PID, about the RJDC, or about your furloughees.

Having said that, the information you're putting out on those issues is less than accurate to put it mildly.

First of all the PID is a dead horse and should be left at that. Pehaps it was not handled properly, as you say. However, who did the mishandling is a matter of opinion. Your opinion is that it was handled poorly by CMR/ASA. Our opinion is that it was handled poorly by your MEC. At this point it does not matter who is right, it's water under the bridge.

As far as the litigation is concerned, that is between ALPA and those that are sueing. It will run its course regardless of the rhetoric, so that is a moot point as well.

With respect to the alleged "treatment" of your furloughees, you need to look to your former MEC Chairman. He is the one that "made the bed", not us.

Regarding your attitude toward Comair pilots, it's up to you all to keep it or change it as you wish. We have been dealing with the "attitude" of your group for more that 10 years, i.e., long before you had any furlougees. For what it's worth, those of us who know the details don't think any better of your "attitude" than you think of ours. So, we're even on that score.

We never picked a fight with you folks, your MEC picked one with us. Your real problem is that you expect us to roll over and just do whatever you all decide is best for us. When we don't you resent us. Well my friend, you're going to have to get used to us not rolling over when you snap your fingers and we're going to have to get used to you resenting us.

Whenever you decide to talk, we will listen. If you don't, oh well. I would ask however, that you not misrepresent the facts. You all seem to have a propensity for doing that.

 

[FDJ2]

That is "hear say" not proof.

It's not "hear say" when he's the one who heard it himself. That's evidence. If on the other hand I were to relate that someone told me that he over heard it, that's "hear say".

 

[~~~^~~~]

FDJ2 @ Michael 707:

The charge was that the Comair MEC had proposed DOH and that was a lie.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Wait a second, is this the same MEC that basically used the Delta furloughees as a bargaining chip during their time of need? The same MEC that has insisted on integrating the CMR pilots into the Delta seniority list according to date of hire?

See what I mean...

 

[FDJ2]

FDJ2 @ Michael 707:

The charge was that the Comair MEC had proposed DOH and that was a lie.

We don't know that it's a lie, but we do know that ASA/CMR MECs had written up a DOH integration between themselves, do we know what they had in mind for DAL? Do you think a staple would have worked? Even if the PID had passed, it wouldn't have forced the integration of lists. Had the ASA/CMR MECs had the foresight to negotiate successorship language in their PWA's requiring integration none of this would be an issue for you.