Comair MEC burning bridges with Delta?

[flaps30]

question

What will keep the senior DAL pilots from resetting the scope again ? If the company wants paycuts or scope reduction, which will the MEC pick ? I have a feeling the 57 seventy seater limit will fall.

x-midway

 

[ShaftedbyJI]

Clarification

Face it, isn't it silly for Bill Buergey to go to CVG to discuss the hiring of Delta pilots when the decisions are actually made on Virginia Ave in Atlanta? Why does the Delta MEC Chairman have to even waste his time talking to the Comair MEC when Delta decides how many and who Comair hires!

FINALLY, someone who knows the REAL truth to the situation!!!!Comair's MEC didn't make the policy MANAGEMENT did. I tried to stay out of this silly little debate but it was just too much!

Regards,
Shafted

 

[Freight Dog]

Afellowaviator,

What your MEC did was very anti-unionlike.. using furloughed ALPA pilots as an extortion tool for additional gains in expansion of Comair flying is WRONG! While I agree with you that MEC's job is to look after the interests of their own pilot group, please tell me how is he looking after your interests by not endorsing the hiring of furloughed ALPA brothers/sisters? Does it affect you in any way if your junior-most FO is a 1200-hour CFI, a furloughed Delta pilot, or a former Midway pilot? If Delta MEC came to ya and said.. we want a flow-through/flow-back in place and super-seniority over current Comair pilots, then there would be no question that by saying no, your MEC would be looking after your interests. Right now.... he's screwing his ALPA brothers/sisters at the parent airline, and IMHO his behavior is best described as morally low, and I can truly hope that Delta guys won't forget this.

Best regards.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Afellowaviator,

What your MEC did was very anti-unionlike.. using furloughed ALPA pilots as an extortion tool for additional gains in expansion of Comair flying is WRONG! ......Does it affect you in any way if your junior-most FO is a 1200-hour CFI, a furloughed Delta pilot, or a former Midway pilot? ...... I can truly hope that Delta guys won't forget this.

Best regards.

So how "unionlike" is it for your Delta MEC Chairman to refuse to discuss a seniority number for Comair pilots because of his concern that military pilots don't want to start at the bottom at a regional airline? That is what this thread is about! The Comair MEC correctly asked for something objective in exchange for their efforts, not a empty promise of preferential hiring when Buergey came right out and said it was his preference that military pilots be hired first.

The hypocracy of you guys is nothing short of amazing. Buergey says that he does not want to water down the gene pool at Delta by making it more difficult to attract military pilots while he completely over looks the fact that our operationally integrated airlines fly the same passengers and we happen to be in the same union. For some reason your MEC Chairman feels a greater obligation to pilots learning to fly T-41's than he does ALPA members flying 75,000 lb jets at .85 full of Delta passengers that his pilots need to fill their airplanes on a daily basis.

 

[Lumber Yak]

I'll keep it simple.

Main issue of thread: preferential treatment. ASA provides furloughed pilots with preferential hiring. Comair does NOT extend the same treatment due to greedy MEC Chairman who uses furloughed pilots as bargaining chips: "we won't help your furloughees unless X, Y, Z..." Delta MEC chairman is very upset. ASA and Delta MECs agree to preferential hiring - IN WRITING. Comair pilots don't get agreement and instead enrage Delta pilots.

Any discussion about changing the scope clause is now moot. You can disagree all you want, but listen to NYRanger (furloughed Delta pilot) above when he says, "We won't forget." I hope the Comair MEC chairman understands the implications of his actions for his constituents...

Spin this any way you want. The fact remains, furloughed pilots were used as bargaining chips - JUST THINK ABOUT IT. How would YOU feel if you were on the other side of the coin?

 

[~~~^~~~]

Lumber Yak:

If Comair and ASA and Delta are not operationally integrated, why doesn't your MEC Chairman trot over to Jet Blue, Airtran, Southwest, Skywest, or Fed Ex with his proposal?

Why are we so special at the wholly owned Connection carriers?

Also, how do you feel about the reasons for your MEC Chairman refusing to engage in negotiations for an objective agreement? How do you feel about his logic?

Apparently your MEC Chairman also puts military pilots ahead of furloghees at Delta, after all that was his reason for refusing to negotiate!

 

[NYRANGERS]

Lumber Yak:

If Comair and ASA and Delta are not operationally integrated, why doesn't your MEC Chairman trot over to Jet Blue, Airtran, Southwest, Skywest, or Fed Ex with his proposal?

Why are we so special at the wholly owned Connection carriers?

Also, how do you feel about the reasons for your MEC Chairman refusing to engage in negotiations for an objective agreement? How do you feel about his logic?

Apparently your MEC Chairman also puts military pilots ahead of furloghees at Delta, after all that was his reason for refusing to negotiate!

Actually this is being discussed. Why cant we try to get a preferential situation with other cariers? Just because comair pilots don't want to work for Delta, doesn't mean another ALPA MEC wont try to secure preferential treatment. I think you will find that us Delta guys and girls have no loyalty towards anyone but the ASA guys and girls. We are going to shop around and see what kind of mutual agreements we can come up with.

Please, no more comments from our "friends" at comair. This is a done deal. You don't want us and we surly don't want you.

 

[flaps30]

Ranger get a job

I'm sure you're gonna find some other regional that will get on their knees for king Delta. You should be more worried about your MEC giving away "your flying". Those senior Delta guys are gonna sell you out, mark my work. When push comes to shove and their pay and retirement are on the line, the regionals will continue to expand and the scope will weaken.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

NYRANGERS,
I swear, you sound like a 2 year old. Grow up.This "you don't want us and we don't want you" CRAP IS REALLY CHILDISH.
Plenty of our pilots will get delta jobs if they want, and your childish tantrum will not change a thing.


The real issue is that our MEC does not have any obligation to help secure future jobs for us, period. Even you can't argue that. There decision making process has absolutely nothing to do with secureing jobs. Every single decision they make has to do with making our careers AS COMAIR PILOTS, let me repeat, AS COMAIR PILOTS, better.
Your MEC came to the meeting with a problem that affects the Delta pilots and our MEC came to the meeting with a problem that affects our pilots. But YOUR rep only wanted to discuss YOUR problem, and launched threats when our rep said it is a two way street.
As long as you have those idiots manning your MEC, nothing will get better for you and those are the facts.

Now, obviously you think it is our MEC's job to seek out job opportunities, or you would not be mad. Please direct me to where that is written in the CB&L'S.tRUTH IS , IT AINT THERE, AND YOU KNOW IT.

We did not put our concerns aside and bow down to your MEC's threats, and THAT is why you all are soooo mad. GET OVER IT!

 

[skydiverdriver]

I think it's so ironic that we are a separate company whenever it might benefit Comair pilots, but we are all one big happy family whenever it might benefit Delta pilots.

The reason ASA hires Delta furloughees is because that has always been their policy. Comair has always had the policy that they must resign first. Nothing has changed, except that the Delta pilots are all upset about this.

Well, when we wanted to discuss a PID with you guys, you wouldn't even talk to us. At least we were willing to meet with your MEC, and still are. I think we took the high road on this deal.

 

[Freight Dog]

Actually, ASA and CMR had an identical policy regarding hiring furloughees. ASA changed theirs, while CMR kept theirs.

I think it's so ironic that we are a separate company whenever it might benefit Comair pilots, but we are all one big happy family whenever it might benefit Delta pilots.

The reason ASA hires Delta furloughees is because that has always been their policy. Comair has always had the policy that they must resign first. Nothing has changed, except that the Delta pilots are all upset about this.

Well, when we wanted to discuss a PID with you guys, you wouldn't even talk to us. At least we were willing to meet with your MEC, and still are. I think we took the high road on this deal.

 

[surplus1]

Please, no more comments from our "friends" at comair. This is a done deal. You don't want us and we surly don't want you.

You know that may be one of the more accurate posts you've made, but you still got it sort of backwards. Are you implying that you "wanted us" before this happened? That's laughable.

How about this. 1) It was not possible for the Comair MEC to burn any bridges, the Delta MEC tore them all down many months ago. 2) With "friends" like we have in the Delta MEC, who needs enemies? 3) It's not a done deal, there is just no deal. 4) You have never wanted us and you've made that more than clear. Why do you suddenly expect us to want you?

This tempest in a tea pot, may well be the third time that the Delta MEC has tried to use a Comair MEC decision to further its own political agenda. DMEC did it when we rejected your alleged offer of a flow-through. An offer on which you could not deliver then, wasn't really a bonafide offer at all and one that you had no authority to make (that authority comes from the Company, not the DMEC). In other words, a bogus "offer". DMEC did it again when you announced, after the PID filing, that we were demanding DOH and trying to "steal your seniority". Your DMEC used that ploy to incite Delta pilots and create animosity towards Comair pilots, who never asked for or expected DOH. Now you come with an alleged "offer of preferential hiring". An offer that you can't back up, have no real authority to make (that comes from the Company too) and no ability to honor.

As Afellowaviator points out, it is a transparent political ploy. The DMEC has been ineffective in protecting the jobs of Delta pilots, ineffective in preventing furloughs, ineffective in enforcing Scope and ineffective in getting furloughed pilots recalled. What better way to change the focus of Delta pilots from the ineffective MEC policys than to find the handy Comair scapegoat once more and blame the Comair MEC for your plight. That's exactly what you did. Now you can justify being "angered" and make threats against Comair pilots, while continuing to stew in the mess you have created for yourselves.

So our MEC isn't falling on its face and scrambling to accept a bogus offer on which you can't deliver anyway. Thank the Lord it didn't. On top of that your MEC Chairman has the nerve to tell us that his bogus preferential offer is preferential only after his buddies that don't work for either company get the more preferential, preferential hiring and, if we don't agree to what he wants, then he's going to "go public". Wow! Our MEC should really tremble in its boots at that threat. What, it didn't? Great!

Both the DMEC and the ALPA have declared that we are a separate airline. Guess what, there are lots of other "separate airlines" out there that are hiring pilots. How come you don't offer them preferential hiring and get them to hire you while you retain your seniority at DAL? Maybe they won't be smart enough to figure out that you really have nothing to offer them in return. The DMEC does not control the hiring process at Delta Air Lines now and you won't in the future. Like a whole lot of other things, you just think you do.

Face it, your MEC just picked the wrong place to attempt to throw its weight around. I have no doubt whatever that your Chairman knew that well before any meeting took place. Thus the ploy was made for political reasons and nothing more.

As for the propaganda that the ASA MEC "gave you" preferential hiring, that's BS too. ASA management decided to hire furloughed Delta pilots on its own. The ASA MEC was smart enough to jump on the political bandwagon that was handed them by their management. No more, no less. Good for them but it sure didn't happen because of anything they did to make it happen.

Comair management has decided not to hire furloughed pilots who refuse to relinquish their seniority at another airline. There is no reason whatever why the Comair MEC should go to battle with Comair management to secure a benefit for an MEC that has repeatedly proven it is quite willing to act against the best interests of Comair pilots.

Is it sad that things are this way? You bet it is. The line pilots at Delta didn't cause this mess. As our MEC told your MEC, the door is open. Come back when you have something to say. Meanwile, BRAVO to the Comair MEC!

 

[rjcap]

As for the propaganda that the ASA MEC "gave you" preferential hiring, that's BS too. ASA management decided to hire furloughed Delta pilots on its own. The ASA MEC was smart enough to jump on the political bandwagon that was handed them by their management. No more, no less. Good for them but it sure didn't happen because of anything they did to make it happen.

Thankyou for reiterating this.

There was never any ASA MEC or Delta MEC involvement in this decision. It was a management decision that was initiated to rehire some ex-ASA pilots who happened to go to the last 3 or 4 new hire classes at Delta.

It was done as a personal favor. Period.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

SURPLUS1,

Good post.!

 

[sleepy]

Thankyou for reiterating this.

There was never any ASA MEC or Delta MEC involvement in this decision. It was a management decision that was initiated to rehire some ex-ASA pilots who happened to go to the last 3 or 4 new hire classes at Delta.

It was done as a personal favor. Period.

The ASA MEC was consulted before the decision was made to hire DAL furloughs was made. Our MEC President told Skip that it was the right thing to do. I do not know if we would be hiring DAL furloughs if the ASA MEC had been opposed to it.

Glad our MEC made the right decision.

 

[General Lee]

Surplus1 and AFellowaviator,

Once again, let me get this straight---it was the Delta MEC's fault that we have furloughed pilots. Hmmmm. What? We had a No furlough clause that was pretty tight, but it didn't say anything about the twin towers coming down and scaring people into not flying. It was something huge that affected everyone, and unfortunately it allowed the company to furlough some pilots through arbitration. Well, now we are back in arbitration and we meet again on Jan 31st with the arbitrator. He stated last year that the only reason he was allowing the furloughs to contine was becasue back then people were still scared to fly. Well, it has been awhile since then and everyone now knows that people are not scared to fly, but rather scared to buy expensive money making tickets. And, as I have stated here in the past, our No Furlough clause states that regardless of the economy, price of fuel, or the UNPROFITABILITY of the company---No furloughs. So, hopefully he will finally see that and stop the furloughs and start a slow recall. Anyways-----how did the MEC fail with that one? Did you see 9-11 coming? He now wants to help out his fellow pilots by getting them temporary work, at places that are benefiting from our problems. ASA doesn't have a problem with allowing our pilots to fly for them, and now they have some sort of preferential hiring when things eventually turn around, even if it is 3-4 years from now. Fred Butrell said that Comair's MEC obviously has some influence with their management. Well, he is also ensuring that his own pilot group will probably not get hired at Delta when things turn around. I keep saying that Lawson could never see himself as an MD88 FO for Delta. He doesn't want that, and that is dangerous for everyone who might. He is thinking about the needs of himself and the top 100 guys over there, without considering the bottom 1500. A furloughed Delta pilots would not affect anyone at Comair---because they would go to the bottom. No one is getting bumped anywhere. And, you are hiring 40-50 a month. What a joke. And to top it off, we helped you when you needed it with checks and support---and you can't help our people when they need it. Onluy guys like Sleepy and Metro Sherrif get it. I hope to see them over here someday. It really is a great airline to fly for, and I know that because I was a regional pilot, too.

Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Lumber Yak]

Quote from Surplus1: "So our MEC isn't falling on its face and scrambling to accept a bogus offer on which you can't deliver anyway. Thank the Lord it didn't. "

THANK THE LORD IT DIDN'T.... Yeah, thank the Lord Delta pilots won't have to fly with you some day. I wonder if you will have the same attitude when ASA pilots are flooding into Delta to fly 737-800s and MD-88s as FOs (maybe 3-4 years out) and you guys at Comair are flying the Saginaw shuttle again... You can thank the grey-haired MEC leaders for that.

You JUST DON'T GET IT. If you want to fly for Delta someday, then do what you can to show your support - just like Delta pilots did while you were losing your strike.... They supported you monetarily (do you remember that? huh? are you ungrateful?) - and now you are screwing the furloughees - some of whom are Comair alums (like Fanman)... I suppose you should learn from Cher who said it best, "If I could turn back time..." Big mistake.

 

[General Lee]

Lumber yak,

Well, your remarks were definitely to the point, and strong in nature. You are right that the Comair pilots need to do something to right this wrong or may regret it someday. They are lead by a leader that doesn't want to be a Delta pilot and is satisfied by his current job. That normally is ok----a lot of people do not want to go to the Majors. But, at the same time he is not helping people who helped him and his group when they needed it. There is no getting around that. I know most Comair pilots are nice people who may not have had a vote in this at all. Well, I think they better say something soon, because they might be affected by this eventually. The ASA MEC didn't let his feelings about RJDC or personal feelings toward the Delta MEC get in the way when it came to the Delta Furloughs---who needed help. Sure, they only hired 13 pilots----that isn't a lot. But, that is better than NONE------and the 13 pilots I am sure are happy to have the job. There is a good bet that there will be more than 13 ASA pilots hired at Delta after all this is done. Thanks for your entusiasm YAK.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[sleepy]

I say good for the Comair MEC. That will mean less competition for ASA pilots when DAL starts hiring again.

ASA will hire again before DAL begins to recall pilots, and hopefully we will hire even more furloughed pilots.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

GENLEE AND LUMBERYAK,


ASA pilots will flood Delta new hire classes??? Plaeeeze. Go some where else and spew this stupidity. Sounds like you guys would make great Jerry Springer guest.

Oh well, us little ol Comair pilots aint never gonna get hired at Delta, wha, wha, wha. You know, you guys are absoluely right. How dare our MEC go to that meeting with the Comair pilots concerns!! Don't they know it is all about the Delta pilots??? They should be hung out to dry. Give me a freakin break........

I swear, you just want to argue or are plane stupid.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Surplus1 and AFellowaviator,

Once again, let me get this straight---it was the Delta MEC's fault that we have furloughed pilots. Hmmmm. What?

Yep! Failed scope which allows the company to hire and furlough at the same time. Failed in a sense that with three pilot groups on the property, they were not smart enough to see this could happen.



. ASA doesn't have a problem with allowing our pilots to fly for them, and now they have some sort of preferential hiring when things eventually turn around, even if it is 3-4 years from now.

YEP, After all the squadran buddies get preff #1, then the freinds of the corporate people, then the family members, then the interns, then the sons and daughters. Sounds like snake oil to me. That is why our mec was able to see thru it.

the Fred Butrell said that Comair's MEC obviously has some influence with their management.


AND THANK GOD THEY DO. Are you saying this is a bad thing?




Well, he is also ensuring that his own pilot group will probably not get hired at Delta when things turn around.



Empty threats from an empty minded person.





I keep saying that Lawson could never see himself as an MD88 FO for Delta. He doesn't want that, and that is dangerous for everyone who might. He is thinking about the needs of himself and the top 100 guys over there, without considering the bottom 1500.




Well, he was thinking of ALL Comair pilots when he wanted to discuss concerns that all Comair pilots share. Job security and scope.As I said before, he does not run an employment agecny, he is the MEC chairman.

And to top it off, we helped you when you needed it with checks and support---



THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU, now will you give it a rest? Delta pilots have been the only ones to throw that in our face.



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Lumber Yak]

Afellowaviator,

At the end of the day, one fact is undeniable: Delta pilots supported Comair pilots during their ill-fated strike and Comair pilots (at least their MEC) did not reciprocate with support when Delta furloughees were in need.... Instead, Delta furloughees were used as bargaining chips - "We will provide preferential hiring to furloughees if we get X..."

You can slam General Lee and me all you want, but the facts remain... Support is appreciated, and ASA pilots interested in Delta will benefit.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Ill-Fated? What exactly do you mean?

There will be plenty of Comair pilots get hired at Delta. Leo is not going to open up his company to a bunch of law suits. Any one with half a brain can see this. Uh, Leo, please don't hire any Comair pilots, we already told them you won't hire them because our MEC is mad at them. Leo says, uh, right..... YOU MUST BE OUT OF YOUR EVER LOVING GORD! Lets get this straight. You advertised all over the aviation world that they will not be hired as revenge, and now you expect me to go along with that? Your fired for being stupid, greive it.

Yea, that will happen. I'm scared.

 

[sleepy]

You cannot discriminate in hiring based on race, color, creed, religion, sex, national origin, or disability (except pilots). You can discriminate in any other way you desire. If DAL does not want to hire pilots for any other reason, they are free not to.

How many airlines will not hire scabs? Where are all of the lawsuits over this practice? How will you even know they are turning Comair pilots down for interviews based on this, do you think they will write it down in a memo that your RJDC lawyers could later find in discovery? Will DAL keep statistics on how many Comair pilots they don't hire? I think not.

 

[PCL_128]

AFELLOWAVIATOR:

Leo may be all for hiring Comair guys, but the fact is that Delta pilots are very involved in the interview process. I don't see that changing when the next round of interviews starts. You won't get hired at Delta without first doing part of the interview with a Delta line pilot or retired Delta pilot. The CMR MEC really screwed the guys there that want a chance at a Delta job someday. There's no way around that. I know you don't want to work at Delta someday, but try to think about someone else for a change. When the DAL MEC comes asking for help, your first thought shouldn't be "what can I get out of this?" They helped you in the past during the strike, you should help them now that you have the chance. That's just common decency.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

You cannot discriminate in hiring based on race, color, creed, religion, sex, national origin, or disability (except pilots). You can discriminate in any other way you desire.





Um, you had better get the law books back out. My sister is a Lawyer. According to the law, if the Delta pilots got Leo to go along with your petty revenge scheem, he would be open to a ton of law suits. She has been practicing for 20 years and represents people who have been turned down for employment for many, many reasons other than what you quoted. One company was purposely not hiring OSU alumni. Seems the President hated OSU, he was a Texas Tech.grad from years ago. Some one spilled the beans after a lot of OSU people got suspicious, and my sister petitioned the court for an enjunction against the discrematory behavior until it could be heard in court.
The President was removed (fired) and a HUGE cash settlement was made to 128 people. It was a publicly held company with a lot of business in Oklahoma. As a result, they lost a lot of contracts with Oklahoma companies.I don't think LEO will be too interested in putting up the companies cash for you guys any time soon.

You need to try a little harder to come up with some thing to scare us with, cause your little black balling game don't wash.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

AFELLOWAVIATOR:

Leo may be all for hiring Comair guys, but the fact is that Delta pilots are very involved in the interview process. I don't see that changing when the next round of interviews starts. You won't get hired at Delta without first doing part of the interview with a Delta line pilot or retired Delta pilot. The CMR MEC really screwed the guys there that want a chance at a Delta job someday. There's no way around that. I know you don't want to work at Delta someday, but try to think about someone else for a change. When the DAL MEC comes asking for help, your first thought shouldn't be "what can I get out of this?" They helped you in the past during the strike, you should help them now that you have the chance. That's just common decency.

I appreciate you wanting to ring in here, but why don't you wait until you are a part of the airline industry before you start shooting your mouth off about things you know nothing about.....

 

[PCL_128]

I appreciate you wanting to ring in here, but why don't you wait until you are a part of the airline industry before you start shooting your mouth off about things you know nothing about.....

Actually, I've been part of the airline industry for about 3 years now. Check the profiles on the left before you start talking about who is shooting their mouths off without knowing what they are talking about. I would have thought the part in my profile that says CRJ pilot would have tipped you off that I do the same job you do. I may not have been in this industry as long as you, but I've been in it long enough to understand that you shouldn't treat furloughed pilots like bargaining chips.

 

[AFELLOWAVIATOR]

Your right, I'm sorry. Who do you fly for?

 

[PCL_128]

Your right, I'm sorry. Who do you fly for?

Pinnacle (Northwest Airlink) out of DTW. I've got a couple of friends at CMR and ASA and plenty at DAL, so I try to keep up on the issues over there as much as possible.