Comair hires Delta pilots...

[T-Gates]

It did not take a crystal ball to see what would happen when Delta's costs realized the effect of Contract 2000. I certainly did not know about 9/11 ahead of time, but I wrote on this board's predecessor that C2K would result in a Delta BK petition in October 04 to March 2005.

Any costs Delta had related to 9/11 were pretty much reimbursed by the US taxpayers. The only number I did not have in my analysis back then was the fuel costs and Delta found more financing than I thought they would. These numbers pretty much cancelled eachother out, although with more long term harm to Delta.

~~~^~~~

I'm not sure how anyone can say with any degree of certainty that DL would be in the same crisis there in now had 9/11 not occurred. It's just pure conjecture....

 

[bigebe02]

After negotiating with the Delta MEC, the Comair MEC has agreed to ask thier management to hire furloughed Delta pilots without having to give up their seniority at Delta. This is confirmed on the current Comair VARS message.

I wonder what the Delta pilots plan to do for us in return?

You wait two years to open the doors to us and now that DAL is recalling, you offer to hire furloughed Delta pilots...and then in the next sentence want to know what the Delta Pilots plan on doing for you??? Are you kidding me?

This is what we plan on doing for you, we plan on not letting another Comair pilot get hired at Delta. This gesture didn't change anything. You think one single Delta pilot is going to accept a job at Comair when Delta is recalling 30-50 a month.

I wouldn't have taken a job two years ago because I couldn't afford to live on $1250 a month first year but there were quite a few that would have liked the opportunity. This isn't personal for me but it is for a lot of guys so don't think that we are all awestruck by your transparent generosity.

 

[skydiverdriver]

T-gates, I think you have it backwards. Of course they had to ask, the Comair MEC has no control over whether the Comair management hires Delta pilots or not. When we asked for the PID, they refused to even talk to us. But when they want something, we are supposed to just roll over? Why does it only make sense to you for us to be nice to them when something bad is happening to them, but not for them to do something nice to us (and required by law) when bad things are happening to us? I don't see the distinction.


As for bigebe02, no, I'm not kidding you. Why should we help you, when you refused to even TALK to us about following your legal obligations? We all know that the request for hiring Delta pilots was just a ploy to make us look bad. Your MEC chairman just went back and promplty lied about it to your members. Why should we do something for you, for nothing, when you will do nothing for us? Can you answer that for me?

Anyway, as you said, most of your guys dont' want the job anyway. I'm sure you would have said the same thing if we had offered two years ago.

 

[350DRIVER]

You wait two years to open the doors to us and now that DAL is recalling, you offer to hire furloughed Delta pilots...and then in the next sentence want to know what the Delta Pilots plan on doing for you??? Are you kidding me?

Well said, the only good thing is justice should prevail when all is said and done and DAL starts hiring pilots. When that day comes I can already see the smiles of those who are sitting on the interview board. These moves will not be forgotten....

3 5 0

 

[FracCapt]

Isn't it funny how the regional guys push for things like one seniority list.....because, apparently, they are OWED a job at a Major.....but then they won't help out when their "brothers"(or so they are called when pushing for that single list) could use it...? Of course, they always have a reason...."oh, they didn't integrate the seniority lists when we asked them to"...or some BS like that...but eventually it becomes a matter of the chicken and the egg...who "screwed" who first? Some things will never change..

 

[bigebe02]

T-gates, I think you have it backwards. Of course they had to ask, the Comair MEC has no control over whether the Comair management hires Delta pilots or not. When we asked for the PID, they refused to even talk to us. But when they want something, we are supposed to just roll over? Why does it only make sense to you for us to be nice to them when something bad is happening to them, but not for them to do something nice to us (and required by law) when bad things are happening to us? I don't see the distinction.


As for bigebe02, no, I'm not kidding you. Why should we help you, when you refused to even TALK to us about following your legal obligations? We all know that the request for hiring Delta pilots was just a ploy to make us look bad. Your MEC chairman just went back and promplty lied about it to your members. Why should we do something for you, for nothing, when you will do nothing for us? Can you answer that for me?

Anyway, as you said, most of your guys dont' want the job anyway. I'm sure you would have said the same thing if we had offered two years ago.

First, what Legal obligations are you referring to?

Second, the Delta Pilots haven't done anything for you? Weren't you around when Delta was hiring? Delta was giving preferential interviews to ASA and Comair. In my class of 20 there were 11 Military and 9 Civilians. Out of those 9 Civilians two were Comair and two were ASA. That is 40% of the Civilian population.

"""Why should we do something for you, for nothing, when you will do nothing for us? Can you answer that for me?"""

If that is your attitude, then don't do anything for us "for nothing". Just at least be consistent. This entire time you didn't do anything for us, now you want to? WTFO.


Third, I never said most didn't want the job. I said I couldn't afford it but I know alot would have liked to option. We never asked for Date of Hire or anything obnoxious like that.



P.S. What is this PID thing you referred to? And what makes it required by law?

 

[Tim47SIP]

This is what we plan on doing for you, we plan on not letting another Comair pilot get hired at Delta. This gesture didn't change anything. You think one single Delta pilot is going to accept a job at Comair when Delta is recalling 30-50 a month.

Dont you think that there is a reason for the Delta MEC to work out a deal with Comair. As skydriver implied, there will more than likely be MORE furloughs. The last word that was put out at the road shows a few months back was a total work force of 5000 pilots. Recalls are only ocuring becasue Delta was forced to. Will reitrements compensate for the numbers, I surely hope so, but I dought it. There has to be a plan brewing that the Delta MEC is working on to bring the excess furloughs to the DCI property (which I fully agree with). Hence the agreement. He wouldn't need it if all of the recalls were to happen. My guess is more 70's with the stipulation that some Delta furloughs get to fly them. But it is anyones guess.

 

[Birddog]

I find all of this chest beating and finger pointing very amusing. Did the Comair MEC ask any of the rank and file what they thought about hiring (or not hiring) DL pilots? Did the Delta MEC ask thier represented how they thought Comair should be dealt with? Most of the time, these decisions are simply made behind closed doors, and we are only informed of the results later. The pilot groups then look at each other as if every single individual is responable for all the evils of the other. WHEN WILL YOU GUYS GROW THE HELL UP? Learn to talk to each other like people and let various leadership elements engage in thier pissing contests. That is thier job. The rest of us just fly the planes and pay the bills. I swear, reading this board is like listening to 5th graders argue sometimes. All of this acrimony between ASA/CMR and Delta was CREATED by the same leadership that we look towards to solve the problem. Does anyone else see the contradiction? Until this "mine's bigger/faster/better/more efficient/cheaper" mentality is conquered and both sides come to the realization that the others are a groups of skilled professionals and worthy comrades, these wasteful power games will continue.

 

[standaman]

And god's people said "AMEN"

 

[bvt1151]

Comair MEC was not prepared to take a paycut in order for Delta furloughs to work there. Fact is Comair would have to expend some negotiating capital at a time when managment was already knocking on the door for concessions. If Delta wants their own furloughs working, Comair is not going to pay for it. If it was a matter of "sure, come on over" it would have been done, but alas thats not the whole story.

 

[DAL737FO]

This is what we plan on doing for you, we plan on not letting another Comair pilot get hired at Delta. This gesture didn't change anything. You think one single Delta pilot is going to accept a job at Comair when Delta is recalling 30-50 a month.

Dont you think that there is a reason for the Delta MEC to work out a deal with Comair. I would like to know what deal you guys are talking about. Our MEC, DALPA, has said nothing about making a deal with COMAIR for hiring. Not a peep. As skydriver implied, there will more than likely be MORE furloughs. I would have agreed with you a few months ago, I'm a furloughee and I do watch these things pretty closely, but Delta only had to recall 30 in Oct but they recalled 50 instead and that was not in an arbitrators ruling. Additionally recallees are going to aircraft larger than the entry level aircraft which would make us believe that they are short of pilots. The last word that was put out at the road shows a few months back was a total work force of 5000 pilots. What freaking road show are you talking about? Recalls are only ocuring becasue Delta was forced to. See above. Will reitrements compensate for the numbers, I surely hope so, but I dought it. There has to be a plan brewing that the Delta MEC is working on to bring the excess furloughs to the DCI property (which I fully agree with). This has never been brought up in any DALPA meeting. Hence the agreement. What freaking agreement? That Comair will hire Delta furloughees after your MEC in Nov 92 said that it would be bad for CRM when asked by Comair management. He wouldn't need it if all of the recalls were to happen. My guess is more 70's with the stipulation that some Delta furloughs get to fly them. Any seat over the 57 70 seaters that is in the contract belongs to DCI, number 58 and above see you at the negotiating table. But it is anyones guess.

Sorry not buying it and not changing my mind just like the majority of furloughees that I talk to. The recall has started. Delta needs pilots. Now Comair wants to make nice. Someone tell me where this quote came from "Nuts" because that is how I feel right now.

 

[FlyingSig]

DAL737 beat me to it.... if there's been one thing SDD has been consistant with over the years is spreading false information.

Comair put out a VARs that says they will ask comair management to hire DAL furloughees without senoirity resignation. Whoop tee doo....

The DAL MEC did not negotiate this. Comair management is under no obligation to listen to the Comair MEC request.

Now that those simply facts are out of the way here's a few opinions.

When Comair wouldn't hire DAL furloughees the tone was "it'll be unsafe to have these two pilot groups sharing a cockpit" "we'll burn the place down" etc.. etc... So what's changed? The very real threat of Chapter 11 and a judge telling Comair to move over because he's sticking Delta pilots in your seat as he tears apart both contracts. The Comair MEC had to put a "good faith" (BS) effort on the table so they can tell the judge...look at us, we offered them jobs and they didn't take them, so you should give all that flying to us now...

There is much deeper meaning behind this VARS message and helping a DAL furloughee is simply an unlucky byproduct of the Comair MEC's"big picture".

 

[FinalOverERI]

I just don't get it..........???

I ask this question as an outsider:
What in the hell does the Comair pilot group have to do with Comair Management's hiring practices??? Seriously? There's got to be something I'm just not seeing (or not).

Here's the way that I can only guess the conversation would go:

Comair MEC: We want you to hire the furloughed Delta pilots without requiring them to resign their Delta seniority number.

Comair Mgt.: Just shut up and go fly your airplanes.

OR,

Comair MEC: We don't want you to hire any furloughed Delta pilots.

Comair Mgt.: Just shut up and go fly your airplanes.

Like the Comair pilots have any say? Yet the pilot group is continuously villified and crucified. WTF? I'm seriously confused.

Please explain it to me. What am I missing??????

 

[FlyComAirJets]

You'll just have to get in line to blacklist us.

"This is what we plan on doing for you, we plan on not letting another Comair pilot get hired at Delta. This gesture didn't change anything. You think one single Delta pilot is going to accept a job at Comair when Delta is recalling 30-50 a month[?]"

Thanks for the love, bro. The decision not to hire Comair pilots was made well before you had your little hissy fit -- it dates back to the spring of '01 when we went on strike. At that time, DAL management cancelled and sent home all Comair pilot applicants, even ones who were down in Atlanta for the interview. Jumpseat home, fuggeda 'bout it! (Thank the Bumpster for that) You guys must have been too busy falling over themselves crossing our little old picket line to notice.

If you believe DAL is going to continue to recall "30-50 a month" in their current precarious state then you need to change your screen name from bigebe02 to big doobie for what you must be smoking. But then, you will probably blame us for that, too.

I'm sure the Comair MEC's statement will contain all the veracity that the Delta MEC's did a decade ago when they endorsed the hiring of Eastern pilots. (Not to worry, I am sure Delta would have hired YOU anyway with your vast experience) Ever fly with even one rEAL pilot? Ever wonder why?

Later.

 

[DL_Infidel]

Sorry not buying it and not changing my mind just like the majority of furloughees that I talk to. The recall has started. Delta needs pilots. Now Comair wants to make nice. Someone tell me where this quote came from "Nuts" because that is how I feel right now.

Band of Brothers....Part 6 Bastogne

Colonel Sink reading a letter to Easy Company from General McCallaugh. "Nuts" is his response to the German commander demanding the surrender of the surrounded US forces at Bastogne.

Sorry, got a lot of time on my hands being unassigned.


DL_Infidel

 

[bigebe02]

Thanks for the love, bro. The decision not to hire Comair pilots was made well before you had your little hissy fit -- it dates back to the spring of '01 when we went on strike. At that time, DAL management cancelled and sent home all Comair pilot applicants, even ones who were down in Atlanta for the interview. Jumpseat home, fuggeda 'bout it! (Thank the Bumpster for that) You guys must have been too busy falling over themselves crossing our little old picket line to notice.

One question...did the Delta pilots give your guys rides home? Did the Delta pilots cause this?


Crossing your picket line? You know **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** well we didn't do any flying other than our own. We had ALPA guys all over our crew rooms making sure Delta didn't sneek a 757 on an MD-88 trip to put more seats into any city you guys served. . But what am I arguing with you for? I honestly didn't know (if it is true) that DAL sent your guys home during your strike. You had my support and the support of every DAL pilot I came in contact with. Sounds to me like your problems lie with our Management.


Keep me posted on the RJDC's progress.

 

[Jeff Helgeson]

Demand vs. yield; capacity or profit?

How do you know what routes are profitable? Just because the plane is full does not mean the flight is profitable.

The right plane for the right route, true. But by what definition. If the planes are full, you probably have the right plane for the job or could use a bigger plane or add more frequency. It is a matter of yield management. You RJ-guys are being a little rough on 350 and are not considering all the factors.

I guess it is tough not to get a distorted view while looking at the situation from your cockpit window!

Jeff

 

[:-)]

If this string is truly indicitive of the situation regarding Delta's: management vs DALPA vs DCI vs ComairALPA vs RJDC vs mainline rank and file vs Comair rank and file vs ASA rank and file vs et al, you guys are going down.

You people need a benevolent dictator, you know, sort of a King Solomon type person.

In the mean time: SWA, AirTran, JetBlue, Spirit, Frontier, continue to get stronger and stronger. Heck, even Cactus, AA, CAL, and NWA are looking better than Delta.

Good Luck,
Hobbes

 

[T-Gates]

You guys must have been too busy falling over themselves crossing our little old picket line to notice.

Sweet jesus...Please put down the crack pipe....Did any DAL pilot knowingly fly struck work? Hell No!

Now you're just reaching.....

 

[skydiverdriver]

Sig,

What false information are you referring to? If you find something I said that was false, please let us all know. Honestly, I expect more from you than false accusations with no information to back them up.

Bigebe02,

What is the PID? Are you serious? How long have you been in this industry? For all of you new guys, I will explain. Back about four years ago when Delta purchased ASA and Comair, our MEC asked for a PID. That stands for Policy Implementation Date, and basically it makes the union follow it's own written bylaws that state they will try to do everything they can to integrate a new airline when it is purchased. They wouldn't even speak to us about it, but later said we weren't "operationally integrated." That arguement could go on forever, but if they had TRIED to merge us, they might not have any furloughees or any scope issues with their "regionals." You might want to a bit of research on this stuff before you speak about it. Just look up all the posts from FDJ or Surplus1, and you will see what it's all about.