Colgan Crash Probable Cause

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Does the Beech 1900 have a trim position indicator? Is the indicator independent of the cockpit trim wheel, or does it have a position sensor back on the elevator somewhere?

 

[John_W_Thompson]

MTOW question

What is the MTOW of the 1900c and d?

 

[chperplt]

Does the Beech 1900 have a trim position indicator? Is the indicator independent of the cockpit trim wheel, or does it have a position sensor back on the elevator somewhere?

The 1900 has a very advanced trim position indicator. One side of the trim wheel has numbers. The trim wheel itself has an arrow... Line things up and there you go.

 

[CitationLover]

What is the MTOW of the 1900c and d?

d is 17120# (c is slightly lower).

the preflight trim check is basically having one check the trim at position 3 and visually looking at the tail then resetting it to 0 and checking it again for "flushness".

one thing i have learned from the two "misrig" accidents and experiences with maintenance is anytime a flight control surface (primary or secondary) has been "adjusted" by maintenance is spend the extra 10min on the ground and thoroughly check the "adjusted" surface with two flight crew members.

sad to have happened both times.

 

[chperplt]

the preflight trim check is basically having one check the trim at position 3 and visually looking at the tail then resetting it to 0 and checking it again for "flushness".

What company do you fly for? That certanly was NOT the trim check at Colgan at the time of this accident.

 

[CitationLover]

i never said it was the Colgan preflight check. it is the one we use at AMW that was passed down from Raytheon i believe. i am assuming the colgan one would be similar. what do they do at colgan?

all we're doing is setting the "normal" (3) takeoff setting, looking where the trim is, and then moving it to 0 and checking to see it moves in the appropriate direction.

 

[chperplt]

The Colgan trim check is not a trim check at all. All they do is verify the trim setting, and then verify the electric trim works with cpt override and split switch. After the accident we were told to run the trim full forward and full aft prior to setting the wheel.

They should absolutely verify tab position but it's not something they do. At least as of last December it wasn't something they did.

 

[Damich]

Having flown the 1900D it seems it would be nearly impossible to detect the misrigging problem during the First Flight of the day checklist. This checklist is normally done during the engine runup before passenger boarding. After the crash at AMW the company reorganized the maintenance department but the quality has not improved. The same mechanics are doing the same half a$$ed work. Just smoke and mirrors in my opinion. Place the blame where it is should be! Lay off the pilots!

 

[TheBigH]

part of the current preflight procedure is to set the trim in the cockpit, then walk behind the plane at least 25 feet to check the position of the tab ....

 

[chperplt]

part of the current preflight procedure is to set the trim in the cockpit, then walk behind the plane at least 25 feet to check the position of the tab ....

So, once you measure your 25 feet, what are you looking for, exactly?

 

[kman]

hey big h do u even fly colgan? if so how long have u been there?

 

[jobear]

I flew on the Beech at SYX and after the first accident we (the FO's) generally made sure we looked at the position in referance to the trim wheel. Having said that I could never tell what position the tab was in, for one I'm short and bespeckled and two I am no maitnenance QA inspector. I quit that crap when I left active duty. Needless to say if I saw something obvious I would report it.

If I remember correctly the only thing the company volume says is the visually check the position with the tab and the trim wheel. I also agree with what chperplt said, all we really physically check is the interupt not the RIGGING.

Just another example of the NTSB and Insurance companies sticking it to the pilots.

 

[TheBigH]

hey big h do u even fly colgan? if so how long have u been there?

if I told you I'd have to kill you .... lol just kiddin ...

PM me if you really want to know ...

now about the 25 feet, I'm assuming that came from Beech but the thing with that is checking to make sure the tab is where it's supposed to be ... from experience FOs should know where it's supposed to be for a given trim setting, if you run the trim full up and full down, etc and check the tab you would know from experience what it's supposed to look like, hence the procedure.

that's all I know about that, I don't know if that check would have prevented the accident, like I said before it's all a big chain and if it's not broken anywhere you end up with a broken airplane and worst of all, the death of two beings...

what I can say on colgan's behalf is that they are really emphasizing this kind of stuff in training and trying to get the point across that FO's are very much responsible for ensuring the airplane is good to go ... the captains are the PICs and all but that preflight responsibility is delegated and it's up to us all to ensure that our planes are airworthy, and that's about as much as we can do to cover our butts and hopefully stay alive long enough to enjoy this career ...

 

[climbhappy]

quote: they are really emphasizing this kind of stuff in training.........yada, yada.


How about a RULE that all FOs leave their cel phones in the cockpit during the walk around! Suzy Roittencrotch will have to wait for you to insure the plane is good to go!

 

[TheBigH]

maybe they can hire you to watch those **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** FOs on their walkarounds ...

as a matter of fact it is very much a rule, you're not supposed to be doing anything that distracts you from your duties, so if an Part 121 FO is stupid enough to be on his/her phone during the walkaround they deserve to get what's coming...

the whole point to all this is that you have to cover your own ass, if my airline had absolutely no procedures in place, guess what, I'd still be doing that walkaround and yadda yadda yadda, not because I don't want to get chewed out by my Chief Pilot, but because I like coming home every night to take care of my wife and take the dog out for a walk ... ( you get the point )