Colgan Crash Probable Cause

[CitationLover]

i never said it was the Colgan preflight check. it is the one we use at AMW that was passed down from Raytheon i believe. i am assuming the colgan one would be similar. what do they do at colgan?

all we're doing is setting the "normal" (3) takeoff setting, looking where the trim is, and then moving it to 0 and checking to see it moves in the appropriate direction.

 

[chperplt]

The Colgan trim check is not a trim check at all. All they do is verify the trim setting, and then verify the electric trim works with cpt override and split switch. After the accident we were told to run the trim full forward and full aft prior to setting the wheel.

They should absolutely verify tab position but it's not something they do. At least as of last December it wasn't something they did.

 

[Damich]

Having flown the 1900D it seems it would be nearly impossible to detect the misrigging problem during the First Flight of the day checklist. This checklist is normally done during the engine runup before passenger boarding. After the crash at AMW the company reorganized the maintenance department but the quality has not improved. The same mechanics are doing the same half a$$ed work. Just smoke and mirrors in my opinion. Place the blame where it is should be! Lay off the pilots!

 

[TheBigH]

part of the current preflight procedure is to set the trim in the cockpit, then walk behind the plane at least 25 feet to check the position of the tab ....

 

[chperplt]

part of the current preflight procedure is to set the trim in the cockpit, then walk behind the plane at least 25 feet to check the position of the tab ....

So, once you measure your 25 feet, what are you looking for, exactly?

 

[kman]

hey big h do u even fly colgan? if so how long have u been there?

 

[jobear]

I flew on the Beech at SYX and after the first accident we (the FO's) generally made sure we looked at the position in referance to the trim wheel. Having said that I could never tell what position the tab was in, for one I'm short and bespeckled and two I am no maitnenance QA inspector. I quit that crap when I left active duty. Needless to say if I saw something obvious I would report it.

If I remember correctly the only thing the company volume says is the visually check the position with the tab and the trim wheel. I also agree with what chperplt said, all we really physically check is the interupt not the RIGGING.

Just another example of the NTSB and Insurance companies sticking it to the pilots.

 

[TheBigH]

hey big h do u even fly colgan? if so how long have u been there?

if I told you I'd have to kill you .... lol just kiddin ...

PM me if you really want to know ...

now about the 25 feet, I'm assuming that came from Beech but the thing with that is checking to make sure the tab is where it's supposed to be ... from experience FOs should know where it's supposed to be for a given trim setting, if you run the trim full up and full down, etc and check the tab you would know from experience what it's supposed to look like, hence the procedure.

that's all I know about that, I don't know if that check would have prevented the accident, like I said before it's all a big chain and if it's not broken anywhere you end up with a broken airplane and worst of all, the death of two beings...

what I can say on colgan's behalf is that they are really emphasizing this kind of stuff in training and trying to get the point across that FO's are very much responsible for ensuring the airplane is good to go ... the captains are the PICs and all but that preflight responsibility is delegated and it's up to us all to ensure that our planes are airworthy, and that's about as much as we can do to cover our butts and hopefully stay alive long enough to enjoy this career ...

 

[climbhappy]

quote: they are really emphasizing this kind of stuff in training.........yada, yada.


How about a RULE that all FOs leave their cel phones in the cockpit during the walk around! Suzy Roittencrotch will have to wait for you to insure the plane is good to go!

 

[TheBigH]

maybe they can hire you to watch those **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** FOs on their walkarounds ...

as a matter of fact it is very much a rule, you're not supposed to be doing anything that distracts you from your duties, so if an Part 121 FO is stupid enough to be on his/her phone during the walkaround they deserve to get what's coming...

the whole point to all this is that you have to cover your own ass, if my airline had absolutely no procedures in place, guess what, I'd still be doing that walkaround and yadda yadda yadda, not because I don't want to get chewed out by my Chief Pilot, but because I like coming home every night to take care of my wife and take the dog out for a walk ... ( you get the point )

 

[chperplt]

maybe they can hire you to watch those **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** FOs on their walkarounds ...

TheBigL

Take it easy there, big fellah!

Since your obviously one of the new 100 or so FOs Colgan has had to hire to replace everyone else who quit, I'll assume you're not as much of a moron as you appear to be.

Rather than jumping down people throats, especially people to fought hard to make your job a little better, try and learn a little from them. What you learn here today, might just save your life tomorrow.

With 1400 hours, I assume you've earned your job. That's about all you've earned so far. Keep learning and remember to tell D.N. and D.R. not just NO, but hell NO.

 

[climbhappy]

Big H Dude

i worked for your airline. and our classroom was right next to the little dance academy that Mrs. colgan runs . As for your chief pilot, he would be "remiss" as he liked to start every conference call, if he didn't chew on your ass for not conducting a proper preflight.

 

[TheBigH]

TheBigL

Take it easy there, big fellah!

Dude relax your bones man, I wasn't jumping down anyone's throat, all I was trying to do is to get the point accross that you gotta watch your own ass, not only to play by the rules but to be safe for your own good, that's all .... btw the censored part wasn't even a bad word ...

Hey I appreciate what all you guys have done in the past to improve things, I get the feel that things have gotten better, maybe it's because the Saab operation is overshadowing the Beech, who knows.

In any case, you're right with 1400 hrs what the hell do I know, imagine what those guys going to XJT with 800/100 know ... scary ...

btw, I haven't met DN or DR but I've sure heard plenty about them ... we'll see ...

i worked for your airline. and our classroom was right next to the little dance academy

Dude that dance studio was funny, the last couple of days we were there you could hear ballroom music playing as we had class, lol ....

 

[chperplt]

In any case, you're right with 1400 hrs what the hell do I know, imagine what those guys going to XJT with 800/100 know ... scary ...

I respect your sarcasm, but the fact is those 800/100 pilots at XJT have a much easier job than you do. They don't have to be able to fly an airplane very well, but you do. They don't have to have any customer service skills, but you do. Ask some of the senior guys you fly with what it was like flying with some of the 500 hour guys than came on line this time last year..

 

[TheBigH]

those 800/100 pilots at XJT have a much easier job than you do.

Agree 100% , even my EMB145 budies @ CHQ admit it

Ask some of the senior guys you fly with what it was like flying with some of the 500 hour guys

Man I don't think I need to ask them, I can just imagine how bad those guys had it. All I can tell you is that I do everything to be a good pilot and an even better PNF.

 

[Jetmech41]

First Flight of the day checklist

I've got the checklist right in front of me (Revision 4, 30 April 2002). There is no "First Flight of the day Checklist." Just after the "After Start Checklist," it says in itallics(and I quote)

If First Flight of the Day

First Flight of Day Checks
.............COMPLETED CR
That is all that was on the checklist

---------------------------------------------------------------

The Factual report was put out in the last couple of days on the ntsb website. Pg.1a and I quote: At 1530:04, the captain called for the After Start checklist. After completing the After Start checklist items, the first officer announced the ckecklist "Complete".

SO....From what I understand the crew is accused of skipping the first flight of the day check list Correct?? So if they completed the after start check list which is only required if it is the first flight of the day then they completed the first flight of the day checklist!!! So what seems to be the problem as far as Steve and Scott are concerned? I didnt see any mention of not completeing a preflight walk around.

 

[FlightTraker]

clarification

Jetmech,

Maybe I am reading you post wrong, but the afterstart checklist is always done after every engine start. The "first flight of the day" line was only done before the actual first flight. For example: a crew shows up in the morning at the gate or hangar and walks out to an airplane that sat overnight. After the FO does a preflight (nothing like a preflight in the dark at 5:30 AM in February in upstate NY) the engines are started and then each pilot goes through his/her First Flight of the Day flow. It is published in the Flight manual, but there is no actual checklist. The airplane is shut down and passengers boarded. Engines are started and the After Start Checklist completed. Because this is the first flight of the day for this crew and aircraft, the "First Flight of the Day, Checks Complete" portion of the checklist is read, and confirmed.


FlightTraker

 

[chperplt]

At 1530:04, the captain called for the After Start checklist. After completing the After Start checklist items, the first officer announced the ckecklist "Complete".

SO....From what I understand the crew is accused of skipping the first flight of the day check list Correct?? So if they completed the after start check list which is only required if it is the first flight of the day then they completed the first flight of the day checklist!!! So what seems to be the problem as far as Steve and Scott are concerned?

Bob,

Let me expand on what my friend FlightTraker said..

The "first flight of the day" checks are preflight checks of systems that only occur before the first flight of each day. These checks include items such as a fire detection check, engine governor function, and a propellor feathering test to name a few.

The "first flight of the day" checks are in what is called the "expanded" checklist. This is a checklist within a checklist that is published within the company flight manual. On the Colgan checklist, the "first flight of the day" checks are included in the after start checklist. They are only verbalized on the checklist after the first flight of the day. At other times they are ignored.

It's obvious to me that the FAA and or NTSB investigators did not do a very complete investigation into Colgan operations. This is made clear as I mentioned above, when the investigator asks why Scott failed to mention the trim work while discussing MELs.. Had he investigated properly, he would have known that Scott would not have that information on his maintenance logbook.