Colgan And Skywest Pilots

[Wiskey Driver]

Did you attend the last RJDC meeting? My bet says "yes." You guys are pathetic.......

Just go ahead and tilt at some more windmills. RJDC is a mgmt-contrived org set up for the express purpose of screwing ALPA.

As for the teamsters-you have to be kidding me! We had a jumpseater the other day who represented by the teamsters and says they are nothing but crap! They won't even open their books to the locals to show where their dues go. Besides-when you need help from ALPA, they at least have some idea what highly technical things like "MEL" and "APU" mean.

Just be sure to fill out that RJDC check-as for me, I'll save that money. I don't desire to help mgmt out any more than I have to.
-Rock, Rock

Jmoney,

you're missing what I am attempting to say. Representation is a must for all carriers and none more so that Colgan and Skywest. What I am saying is know full well what you are getting into prior to getting in!!!

ALPA facts, aero medical outstanding have used them myself in the past and they are second to none.

ALPA legal, another good bet as they will go thru hell and high water to protect those in trouble of losing their careers to BS.

ALPA will spend money on trying to get a good contract and none more obvious than at MESABA. We got a breif from Chris Beebe and were told that the MCF was damned near broke because of all the money spent on MESABA. TO that I say H ell yes twice because that's what the union is supposed to be about!!

Now the beef many of us have is ALPA leaves a lot to be desired when politics are played. The union is only as strong as it constitution and bylaws. When those are violated in the name of saving ALPA then there is a huge problem.

You need to do some research in to what ALPA was to what it's become. There was a time when ALPA offerend to mortage all it had to defend UAL in a strike against Dick Ferris and UAL management!! That's union Jmoney!!! Now ALPA is more concerned with making money then defending it's responsibilities.

Again representation is an absolute MUST but know and understand all.

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Just because a rank-and-file member perceives that they were screwed by ALPA, doesn't make it so. You seem to be more concerned with emotions and perceptions rather than facts and figures. Please present some actual facts that back up your claim that ALPA intentionally screwed the TWA pilots. Until then, it's nothing but a bunch of hot air.



ALPA is following the C & BLs. Not sure what they have to do with this issue, however, since the C & BLs do not contain ALPA merger policy. Merger policy is found in the Admin Manual. But ALPA is following that too. Perhaps you could point out a specific part of Section 45 that you feel ALPA is violating.

Do I need to go and get some of the TWA pilots
and bring them to this thread to once again put you in your place PCL??? ALPA sold them out in an attempt to hopefully bring AA as a whole into ALPA. It failed and now you see the results.

What do you think the admin manual is PCL??? It is part of the bylaws of this association and no they are not being followed. Prater is playing politics in an attempt to starve off an weak decert effort in the east. Get the full education prior to speaking PCL, your foot has been in your mouth more than once by now it's got to hurt..

 

[PCL_128]

We got a breif from Chris Beebe and were told that the MCF was damned near broke because of all the money spent on MESABA.

Alright, now I'm questioning whether you're even a rep at all. There's not a chance that Captain Beebe told you that, because the MCF is self-sustaining with a current balance in excess of $80 million. The OCF is practically broke (to the point that the EC and EB are considering a change to policy to allow money to be transferred from the MCF to the OCF), but the OCF has absolutely nothing to do with the money spent on XJ's bankruptcy.

 

[TWA Dude]

In fact, the TWA pilots can blame their predicament on the fact that ALPA wasn't the representative at AMR.

First of all, we have written proof that ALPA continued their campaign to get the APA to rejoin after the TWA purchase was announced. Second, as per instructions of our MEC our ALPA-National supplied merger attorney was about to file court injunction papers to stop Supplement CC from being implemented -- until Woerth ordered him to stop. Turned out he worked for Woerth and not for the TWA MEC (a mistake not repeated at AWA). Lastly, where was the outrage at ALPA brethren being screwed by another union? Where were the billboards, newspaper adds, pickets, handouts, anything other than a wimper? If I were an APA member at the time I'd be thinking to myself, "Why would I want to rejoin a union that so easily abandons its own?" Incidentally, the internal APA drive to rejoin ALPA petered-out after the TWA acquisition.

If this was an ALPA/ALPA merger, then they would have ended up much better off.

How can you say that, especially considering that you disagree with Nicolau's ruling? There's no guarantee an arbitrator would've given us anything better that what the APA did. Still, we would've loved the opportunity to have the fair process that ALPA Merger Policy entails. And unlike the USAir MEC and YOU I would've accepted the arbitrator's decision and not spitefullly tried to screw the other side.

As it turned out, the TWA MEC was left with two options: give up the scope protections governing mergers and save the jobs of the pilot group, or try to hold on to it and AMR will just allow TWA to go chapter 7 and cherry-pick the assets at auction with zero pilots to go with them.

It's true what they say, if you tell an untruth often enough you start to believe it. I'll type this slowly so you can understand it: the TWA sale to AA would've gone through regardless of whether our MEC agreed to give up successorship clauses! The bankruptcy judge stated (erroneously, as it turned out) that he couldn't cherry-pick parts of our CBA to change; he could only do nothing or abrogate the whole thing. Our MEC acted to keep intact the rest of our CBA. AA wasn't going to let a pesky pilots' union get in their way. If they'd wanted TWA to go Chap 7 they wouldn't have gone forward with their DIP financing.

ALPA had no way to defend against this,...

Well, it was the Woerth-controlled attorney who advised our MEC to give up our successorship clauses. Hard to tell whose interests he was really representing. And BTW, that attorney I'm talking about, Roland Wilder, is the same guy the Easties are using to sue the AWA MEC. Go figure.

However, it is blatantly obvious to everyone but the AWA pilot group that this award was not fair in the slightest, ...

Ha! I'd be willing to bet money that a poll of non-AWA/USA pilots would reveal something very different from what you presume.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Alright, now I'm questioning whether you're even a rep at all. There's not a chance that Captain Beebe told you that, because the MCF is self-sustaining with a current balance in excess of $80 million. The OCF is practically broke (to the point that the EC and EB are considering a change to policy to allow money to be transferred from the MCF to the OCF), but the OCF has absolutely nothing to do with the money spent on XJ's bankruptcy.

Well PCL think what you want but I mix it up with the national officers regularly and will again one week from today!!! As you can now see TWA DUDE has once AGAIN made you look like the d amn fool you are!!! There is going to come a time in your life when you are going to get sick of being made to look this way and at that point you will remove that foot from your mouth...

WD.

 

[Fred Rogers]

Jmoney,

you're missing what I am attempting to say. Representation is a must for all carriers and none more so that Colgan and Skywest. What I am saying is know full well what you are getting into prior to getting in!!!

ALPA facts, aero medical outstanding have used them myself in the past and they are second to none.

ALPA legal, another good bet as they will go thru hell and high water to protect those in trouble of losing their careers to BS.

ALPA will spend money on trying to get a good contract and none more obvious than at MESABA. We got a breif from Chris Beebe and were told that the MCF was damned near broke because of all the money spent on MESABA. TO that I say H ell yes twice because that's what the union is supposed to be about!!

Again representation is an absolute MUST but know and understand all.

WD.

You have said it yourself!!!!

Try to put this in the perspective of a Colgan pilot. If you knew what we go through out on the line at our company, you would have a different tone. It was already asked if you have ever worked at a non-union carrier. We are chomping at the bit to get some of the benifets that rank and file union pilots take for granted or don't even think of as a benifet.

Again I say that your anger is misplaced. You need to look at your MEC's and pilot groups.

It has been said many times that you need to elect good people to lead your union, and then you need to keep a close eye on them. I know there are plenty of people out there, particularly the reps who will say if you don't like it, get involved.

Good luck, and please support us in our quest for representation. Voting no and hoping a teamsters or other drive will materialize in a year is NOT an option. Besides, it would be the same debate then. I can hear it now. "What has the Teamsters done for Great Lakes?" Blah blah blah, they represent truckers not pilots, blah blah blah. We will be fighting the same union busting playbook that we are fighting now. I am going to repeat what you said. "Representation is an ABSOLUTE MUST"

Fred


Don't Delay Vote Today
www.alpa.org/colgan

 

[DoinTime]

WD...how is it that you feel that the rightfull place for a relative new hire at AWA on a combined seniority list is right in the middle of USAIR guys at that have 18+ years in?

The Nicolli award gave a windfall to the AWA guys. Everyone that is emotionally and financially detached from the situation can see that. The USAIR guys have a right to be pissed and you can bet that they will expend every resorce into vacating the award. Sadly decertifying ALPA at USAIR has the potential to achieve the same outcome.

 

[BoilerUP]

WD...how is it that you feel that the rightfull place for a relative new hire at AWA on a combined seniority list is right in the middle of USAIR guys at that have 18+ years in?

The Nicolli award gave a windfall to the AWA guys. Everyone that is emotionally and financially detached from the situation can see that. The USAIR guys have a right to be pissed and you can bet that they will expend every resorce into vacating the award. Sadly decertifying ALPA at USAIR has the potential to achieve the same outcome.

The most junior active AWA pilot has every right to be ahead of the most senior furloughed East pilot. One pilot had a job, one did not. One had a reasonable expectation for career progression at their employer, the other didn't because they were not employed.

Young & junior West pilots absolutely should not have to pay the consequences of old & junior East pilots having had a crappy career.

 

[TurboAWD]

and West pilots had no reasonable expectation to fly widebodies, so there should be fences.

Turbo

 

[PCL_128]

First of all, we have written proof that ALPA continued their campaign to get the APA to rejoin after the TWA purchase was announced.

Even if such proof exists, it doesn't prove any impropriety existed. Nothing would preclude ALPA from representing the interests of the TWA pilots while at the same time having discussions with pilots at AMR about rejoining the Association.

Lastly, where was the outrage at ALPA brethren being screwed by another union? Where were the billboards, newspaper adds, pickets, handouts, anything other than a wimper? If I were an APA member at the time I'd be thinking to myself, "Why would I want to rejoin a union that so easily abandons its own?"

What would "outrage" have done? Again, emotion and perception is mentioned instead of pragmatism. All the outrage in the world wouldn't have changed your situation. Billboards, ads, pickets, handouts, etc... would have cost a great deal of money, and accomplished exactly nothing.

How can you say that, especially considering that you disagree with Nicolau's ruling? There's no guarantee an arbitrator would've given us anything better that what the APA did. Still, we would've loved the opportunity to have the fair process that ALPA Merger Policy entails.

While anything is certainly possible, it's highly unlikely that ALPA merger policy would have resulted in anything remotely resembling the screw-job that the APA forced upon the TWA pilots.

It's true what they say, if you tell an untruth often enough you start to believe it. I'll type this slowly so you can understand it: the TWA sale to AA would've gone through regardless of whether our MEC agreed to give up successorship clauses!

Maybe, maybe not. Apparently the ALPA attorneys disagreed with your assessment. If you're wrong and AMR allowed TWA to enter Chapter 7, then the TWA pilots would all have been permanently out of their jobs. That's a tough decision for any MEC to make.

I'd be willing to bet money that a poll of non-AWA/USA pilots would reveal something very different from what you presume.

I doubt it. Hey Mods, any chance we can put up a poll to find out what the FI crowd thinks?

 

[PCL_128]

Well PCL think what you want but I mix it up with the national officers regularly and will again one week from today!!!

I could care less how often you "mix it up" with the National Officers. That doesn't change facts. Do you or do you not agree that the MCF balance is currently in the neighborhood of $80-90 million and is self-sustaining?

 

[BoilerUP]

and West pilots had no reasonable expectation to fly widebodies, so there should be fences.

Turbo

You're probably right...but since the East MEC wasn't willing to come off their DOH position before binding arbitration why should the West MEC acquiesce on any part of the award?

That triviality aside, how long and to what degree should those widebody & international fences be? East pilots already got the top 518 or so slots on the merged list...but I think the current number of International/Widebody positions for 4 of 5 years would be reasonable.

Its doubtful many West pilots would relocate or commute to PHL or CLT just to fly a widebody...but at the same time, they shouldn't be locked out of any growth internationally!

 

[PCL_128]

You're probably right...but since the East MEC wasn't willing to come off their DOH position before binding arbitration why should the West MEC acquiesce on any part of the award?

Because if they don't, then they'll probably never see a joint contract and a healthy USAir. Holding onto this award for dear life isn't in the best interests of either pilot group. A compromise needs to be reached so as to move ahead with negotiations on a joint contract and put this mess behind them. If the West pilots have no interest in East domiciles and widebody equipment as the West pilots claim, then they should have no problem agreeing to appropriate fences that assure the Easties of that. Stubbornly refusing to compromise just out of principal is not a wise move, and will not prove to be in the best long-term interests of the West pilots.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WD...how is it that you feel that the rightfull place for a relative new hire at AWA on a combined seniority list is right in the middle of USAIR guys at that have 18+ years in?

The Nicolli award gave a windfall to the AWA guys. Everyone that is emotionally and financially detached from the situation can see that. The USAIR guys have a right to be pissed and you can bet that they will expend every resorce into vacating the award. Sadly decertifying ALPA at USAIR has the potential to achieve the same outcome.

Ok lets discuss that shall we. Ask yourself this question, the 18yr person at the time the merger was announced had how many pilots below him/her on their seniority list, then ask how many were below the AWA guy and the answer is simple both had roughly 100 pilots below them.

Now after 18yrs pilot A has only 100 people below him/her in their list which indicates what?? The your company is dying a slow and painfull death. Pilot B has 100 pilots below him/her after 5 months. Should Pilot A from a dying company be given special treatment because he/she had 18yrs of Longevity?? Obviously this person was very JR after 18yrs, WHY?? Because the company that he/she worked for was terminal!!!

The award gives pilot A the same exact place on the combined list that he/she held on the own list ie, if they were at the bottom of the list prior to merger then they should be at the bottom of the list after the merger.

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

and West pilots had no reasonable expectation to fly widebodies, so there should be fences.

Turbo

Let me explain something to you because you don't seem to get it. It isn't about wide body a/c and it never was!! Wide body flying at this company is not valued all that high in the first place. It goes somewhat JR in fact very JR furloughees are being placed in the 767 so get off this wide body kick already!!!

This is about following the rules TURBO those same rules you are going ot be looking to protect you in the later years of your career.

WD

 

[BoilerUP]

Because if they don't, then they'll probably never see a joint contract and a healthy USAir. Holding onto this award for dear life isn't in the best interests of either pilot group. A compromise needs to be reached so as to move ahead with negotiations on a joint contract and put this mess behind them. If the West pilots have no interest in East domiciles and widebody equipment as the West pilots claim, then they should have no problem agreeing to appropriate fences that assure the Easties of that.

You are advocating the West pilots acquiesce on the arbitrated award, when East pilots were completely unwilling to compromise their position before arbitration, in exchange for what?

"A joint contract?" West pilots already have better workrules and payrates than their East counterparts. It is far more in the East's interest to obtain a joint contract than the West.

"A healthy US Air?" Has there ever been a healthy US Air?

There likely are West pilots that live out East, just as there are likely East pilots that live out West, whose QOL would benefit from bidding inter-domicile. I agree that a widebody/international fence would go a long way toward obtaining a joint contract...but only if it didn't lock out former West pilots from international growth. Will this be offered by the West? I don't know, but I would understand 100% if they told the East to pound sand.

Stubbornly refusing to compromise just out of principal is not a wise move, and will not prove to be in the best long-term interests of the West pilots.

"Stubbornly refusing to compromise just out of principal" sure didn't prove to be a wise move for the East pilots, now did it?

---

Good God, just wait until the regional mergers get started...

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Because if they don't, then they'll probably never see a joint contract and a healthy USAir. Holding onto this award for dear life isn't in the best interests of either pilot group. A compromise needs to be reached so as to move ahead with negotiations on a joint contract and put this mess behind them. If the West pilots have no interest in East domiciles and widebody equipment as the West pilots claim, then they should have no problem agreeing to appropriate fences that assure the Easties of that. Stubbornly refusing to compromise just out of principal is not a wise move, and will not prove to be in the best long-term interests of the West pilots.

Here is where you keep falling off the truck!! You have got to be as dumb as a bag of hammers!!! Agree to alter an arbitrated award AFTER the fact?? You must be outside of your mind!! Do you have any idea of what that will mean to ALL future arbitrations?? If you don't like the award not to worry because you can just agree POST award to alter it. What happens when management seeks this same type of relief??

Get a clue man, what you are proposing would have catastrophic consequences for this industry. Follow the rules Binding means Binding PERIOD!!!!

 

[TurboAWD]

This is about following the rules TURBO those same rules you are going ot be looking to protect you in the later years of your career.

WD

Exactly what action has ALPA taken that has violated the rules? What have they done, exactly? Sent a few emails, had a few meetings, in an attempt to keep AAA ALPA from crumbling.

Turbo

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I could care less how often you "mix it up" with the National Officers. That doesn't change facts. Do you or do you not agree that the MCF balance is currently in the neighborhood of $80-90 million and is self-sustaining?

I can't tell you that right at the moment but I can tell you that Chris Beebe told us all at a joint MEC meeting (east and West) that the fund was in really bad shape so unless he was lying I have no reason to doubt him!!!

WD.

 

[TWA Dude]

Even if such proof exists, it doesn't prove any impropriety existed. Nothing would preclude ALPA from representing the interests of the TWA pilots while at the same time having discussions with pilots at AMR about rejoining the Association.

Lemme help you out here since the obvious escapes you. ALPA sold out the TWA pilots in an attempt to appease the APA who happen to be 9000 highly-paid pilots (in 2001, at least). It wasn't personal, just business, and it was unethical business.

What would "outrage" have done?

Oh, I dunno, maybe at least given the appearance that they were trying to protect us. Heck, maybe even influenced the APA Merger Committee since their goal was to give TWA the least amount possible they felt would hold up in court.

Billboards, ads, pickets, handouts, etc... would have cost a great deal of money, and accomplished exactly nothing.

Well, their results may be debatable but they're still at the forefront of current ALPA strategy in our struggles against management. Just in the past year we've had a billboard near PHX and several pickets. This is what unions do to attract attention.

While anything is certainly possible, it's highly unlikely that ALPA merger policy would have resulted in anything remotely resembling the screw-job that the APA forced upon the TWA pilots.

That may be but you missed my point. You're being specious by extoling the virtues of arbitration when you support the USAir Easties in their efforts to overthrow one.

Apparently the ALPA attorneys disagreed with your assessment.

Right, and we've already established where the loyalty of those ALPA attorneys lied.

If you're wrong and AMR allowed TWA to enter Chapter 7, then the TWA pilots would all have been permanently out of their jobs. That's a tough decision for any MEC to make.

Your "if" statment is irrelevent since both AA and the judge stated the CBA would be abrogated if the MED didn't remove the offending clauses. It was indeed a tough decision, especially since the Section 1113 bankrupcty filing was unprecedented. I don't fault our MEC for making that decision. In retrospect, I don't think it made any difference whatsoever.

Hey Mods, any chance we can put up a poll to find out what the FI crowd thinks?

I don't object to polling FI but I meant a more representative poll like the Wilson Center does.