Colgan And Skywest Pilots

[PCL_128]

Well PCL think what you want but I mix it up with the national officers regularly and will again one week from today!!!

I could care less how often you "mix it up" with the National Officers. That doesn't change facts. Do you or do you not agree that the MCF balance is currently in the neighborhood of $80-90 million and is self-sustaining?

 

[BoilerUP]

and West pilots had no reasonable expectation to fly widebodies, so there should be fences.

Turbo

You're probably right...but since the East MEC wasn't willing to come off their DOH position before binding arbitration why should the West MEC acquiesce on any part of the award?

That triviality aside, how long and to what degree should those widebody & international fences be? East pilots already got the top 518 or so slots on the merged list...but I think the current number of International/Widebody positions for 4 of 5 years would be reasonable.

Its doubtful many West pilots would relocate or commute to PHL or CLT just to fly a widebody...but at the same time, they shouldn't be locked out of any growth internationally!

 

[PCL_128]

You're probably right...but since the East MEC wasn't willing to come off their DOH position before binding arbitration why should the West MEC acquiesce on any part of the award?

Because if they don't, then they'll probably never see a joint contract and a healthy USAir. Holding onto this award for dear life isn't in the best interests of either pilot group. A compromise needs to be reached so as to move ahead with negotiations on a joint contract and put this mess behind them. If the West pilots have no interest in East domiciles and widebody equipment as the West pilots claim, then they should have no problem agreeing to appropriate fences that assure the Easties of that. Stubbornly refusing to compromise just out of principal is not a wise move, and will not prove to be in the best long-term interests of the West pilots.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

WD...how is it that you feel that the rightfull place for a relative new hire at AWA on a combined seniority list is right in the middle of USAIR guys at that have 18+ years in?

The Nicolli award gave a windfall to the AWA guys. Everyone that is emotionally and financially detached from the situation can see that. The USAIR guys have a right to be pissed and you can bet that they will expend every resorce into vacating the award. Sadly decertifying ALPA at USAIR has the potential to achieve the same outcome.

Ok lets discuss that shall we. Ask yourself this question, the 18yr person at the time the merger was announced had how many pilots below him/her on their seniority list, then ask how many were below the AWA guy and the answer is simple both had roughly 100 pilots below them.

Now after 18yrs pilot A has only 100 people below him/her in their list which indicates what?? The your company is dying a slow and painfull death. Pilot B has 100 pilots below him/her after 5 months. Should Pilot A from a dying company be given special treatment because he/she had 18yrs of Longevity?? Obviously this person was very JR after 18yrs, WHY?? Because the company that he/she worked for was terminal!!!

The award gives pilot A the same exact place on the combined list that he/she held on the own list ie, if they were at the bottom of the list prior to merger then they should be at the bottom of the list after the merger.

WD.

 

[Wiskey Driver]

and West pilots had no reasonable expectation to fly widebodies, so there should be fences.

Turbo

Let me explain something to you because you don't seem to get it. It isn't about wide body a/c and it never was!! Wide body flying at this company is not valued all that high in the first place. It goes somewhat JR in fact very JR furloughees are being placed in the 767 so get off this wide body kick already!!!

This is about following the rules TURBO those same rules you are going ot be looking to protect you in the later years of your career.

WD

 

[BoilerUP]

Because if they don't, then they'll probably never see a joint contract and a healthy USAir. Holding onto this award for dear life isn't in the best interests of either pilot group. A compromise needs to be reached so as to move ahead with negotiations on a joint contract and put this mess behind them. If the West pilots have no interest in East domiciles and widebody equipment as the West pilots claim, then they should have no problem agreeing to appropriate fences that assure the Easties of that.

You are advocating the West pilots acquiesce on the arbitrated award, when East pilots were completely unwilling to compromise their position before arbitration, in exchange for what?

"A joint contract?" West pilots already have better workrules and payrates than their East counterparts. It is far more in the East's interest to obtain a joint contract than the West.

"A healthy US Air?" Has there ever been a healthy US Air?

There likely are West pilots that live out East, just as there are likely East pilots that live out West, whose QOL would benefit from bidding inter-domicile. I agree that a widebody/international fence would go a long way toward obtaining a joint contract...but only if it didn't lock out former West pilots from international growth. Will this be offered by the West? I don't know, but I would understand 100% if they told the East to pound sand.

Stubbornly refusing to compromise just out of principal is not a wise move, and will not prove to be in the best long-term interests of the West pilots.

"Stubbornly refusing to compromise just out of principal" sure didn't prove to be a wise move for the East pilots, now did it?

---

Good God, just wait until the regional mergers get started...

 

[Wiskey Driver]

Because if they don't, then they'll probably never see a joint contract and a healthy USAir. Holding onto this award for dear life isn't in the best interests of either pilot group. A compromise needs to be reached so as to move ahead with negotiations on a joint contract and put this mess behind them. If the West pilots have no interest in East domiciles and widebody equipment as the West pilots claim, then they should have no problem agreeing to appropriate fences that assure the Easties of that. Stubbornly refusing to compromise just out of principal is not a wise move, and will not prove to be in the best long-term interests of the West pilots.

Here is where you keep falling off the truck!! You have got to be as dumb as a bag of hammers!!! Agree to alter an arbitrated award AFTER the fact?? You must be outside of your mind!! Do you have any idea of what that will mean to ALL future arbitrations?? If you don't like the award not to worry because you can just agree POST award to alter it. What happens when management seeks this same type of relief??

Get a clue man, what you are proposing would have catastrophic consequences for this industry. Follow the rules Binding means Binding PERIOD!!!!

 

[TurboAWD]

This is about following the rules TURBO those same rules you are going ot be looking to protect you in the later years of your career.

WD

Exactly what action has ALPA taken that has violated the rules? What have they done, exactly? Sent a few emails, had a few meetings, in an attempt to keep AAA ALPA from crumbling.

Turbo

 

[Wiskey Driver]

I could care less how often you "mix it up" with the National Officers. That doesn't change facts. Do you or do you not agree that the MCF balance is currently in the neighborhood of $80-90 million and is self-sustaining?

I can't tell you that right at the moment but I can tell you that Chris Beebe told us all at a joint MEC meeting (east and West) that the fund was in really bad shape so unless he was lying I have no reason to doubt him!!!

WD.

 

[TWA Dude]

Even if such proof exists, it doesn't prove any impropriety existed. Nothing would preclude ALPA from representing the interests of the TWA pilots while at the same time having discussions with pilots at AMR about rejoining the Association.

Lemme help you out here since the obvious escapes you. ALPA sold out the TWA pilots in an attempt to appease the APA who happen to be 9000 highly-paid pilots (in 2001, at least). It wasn't personal, just business, and it was unethical business.

What would "outrage" have done?

Oh, I dunno, maybe at least given the appearance that they were trying to protect us. Heck, maybe even influenced the APA Merger Committee since their goal was to give TWA the least amount possible they felt would hold up in court.

Billboards, ads, pickets, handouts, etc... would have cost a great deal of money, and accomplished exactly nothing.

Well, their results may be debatable but they're still at the forefront of current ALPA strategy in our struggles against management. Just in the past year we've had a billboard near PHX and several pickets. This is what unions do to attract attention.

While anything is certainly possible, it's highly unlikely that ALPA merger policy would have resulted in anything remotely resembling the screw-job that the APA forced upon the TWA pilots.

That may be but you missed my point. You're being specious by extoling the virtues of arbitration when you support the USAir Easties in their efforts to overthrow one.

Apparently the ALPA attorneys disagreed with your assessment.

Right, and we've already established where the loyalty of those ALPA attorneys lied.

If you're wrong and AMR allowed TWA to enter Chapter 7, then the TWA pilots would all have been permanently out of their jobs. That's a tough decision for any MEC to make.

Your "if" statment is irrelevent since both AA and the judge stated the CBA would be abrogated if the MED didn't remove the offending clauses. It was indeed a tough decision, especially since the Section 1113 bankrupcty filing was unprecedented. I don't fault our MEC for making that decision. In retrospect, I don't think it made any difference whatsoever.

Hey Mods, any chance we can put up a poll to find out what the FI crowd thinks?

I don't object to polling FI but I meant a more representative poll like the Wilson Center does.

 

[PCL_128]

"A joint contract?" West pilots already have better workrules and payrates than their East counterparts. It is far more in the East's interest to obtain a joint contract than the West.

The East is concerned with keeping their upgrades coming based on mandatory retirements. A joint contract could mean that many of those upgrade slots will go to West pilots and the junior Easties could be stuck pulling gear for a former West FO. A joint contract would mean higher FO pay, but not higher than what that upgrade slot would have brought them.

"A healthy US Air?" Has there ever been a healthy US Air?

Neverthless, it's in the best interests of both sides to move on and at least attempt to create a healthy airline. This continuing animosity will only get worse as time goes on, and USAir (both sides) will suffer because of it. Is destroying the company from the inside out really worth it? Give the guys the fences they need and be done with the dang thing.

"Stubbornly refusing to compromise just out of principal" sure didn't prove to be a wise move for the East pilots, now did it?

No, it didn't, which is exactly my point. Even if you agree with the West pilots that this was a fair award, that doesn't change the realities of the situation. The East pilots stuck to their DOH mantra and got screwed because of it. Will the West now stick to their "binding arbitration is final" mantra no matter what the consequences? It's time for both sides to start looking at what is best for the long-term health of the airline and what is in the best long-term interests of both pilot groups. Throwing the same arguments back and forth over and over again to either attack the award or to defend it will not change the situation.

 

[BoilerUP]

The East is concerned with keeping their upgrades coming based on mandatory retirements. A joint contract could mean that many of those upgrade slots will go to West pilots and the junior Easties could be stuck pulling gear for a former West FO. A joint contract would mean higher FO pay, but not higher than what that upgrade slot would have brought them.

Let us not forget that many of those retirements are from the right seat, and how the staffic dynamic changes with a change in the mandatory retirement age (which I understand won't happen this year, no?).

No, it didn't, which is exactly my point. Even if you agree with the West pilots that this was a fair award, that doesn't change the realities of the situation. The East pilots stuck to their DOH mantra and got screwed because of it. Will the West now stick to their "binding arbitration is final" mantra no matter what the consequences? It's time for both sides to start looking at what is best for the long-term health of the airline and what is in the best long-term interests of both pilot groups. Throwing the same arguments back and forth over and over again to either attack the award or to defend it will not change the situation.

So you're king for a day. What would YOU do to rectify this situation?

 

[TWA Dude]

Because if they don't, then they'll probably never see a joint contract and a healthy USAir.

This is called "Turning the Victim into the Perpetrator". You think the Westies should give unilateral concessions to the East so they'll drop their stalling of the Joint Negotiating process? What kind of unionist are you that you want one side to give in to extortion? We followed the rules and the Easties are trying to muscle their way around them. I don't care how anybody feels about the Nicolau Award, we're talking about following the rules. The ALPA EC ruled there was nothing improper about the Award and I guarantee you no judge will touch it. So you know what that means? It means binding abritration is binding! Nobody coerced them into it; they went willingly just like we did. That means you accept the results come what may. They agreed to this!

 

[PCL_128]

Here is where you keep falling off the truck!! You have got to be as dumb as a bag of hammers!!!

Again with the personal attacks? I'm trying to keep this civil with you since you claim to be a rep, but you're making it very difficult.

Follow the rules Binding means Binding PERIOD!!!!

You may think that sticking to principals is noble, but is it really what's in the best interests of your pilot group that you represent? What will be the long-term consequences? Will the two sides ever agree to move on and negotiate a joint contract? Will that integrated list you're holding onto so tightly ever become a reality? Why hold on if it's not worth the paper it's printed on?

 

[PCL_128]

So you're king for a day. What would YOU do to rectify this situation?

I would imagine that some simple long-term fences to protect East upgrades would suffice to bring the East MEC on board. If so, that's exactly what the West should do.