Colgan Airlines stall recovery

[Flyer1015]

because you should NEVER unintentionally stall an aircraft...

You're right, and you should never crash a perfectly flying widebody into the Everglades over one malfunctioning light bulb. And you should never slam a perfectly flying 757 into a Columbian mountainside over a FMS/lost issue. And you should never take off on the wrong runway, especially when it's only 3,500 feet long. But you know what? Sh*t happens.

Give me an airplane, and I will give you a situation in which someone, even an experienced pilot, will end in an UNDESIRABLE state. And I include an approach to stall in this. Things happen, and all we can do is study it, learn from it, and modify whatever needs to be fixed. There is no doubt the Colgain training department could use an overhaul/change. And, there is no doubt that current scheduling/rest regulations could use a change, along with addressing fatigue issues.

 

[LazyLightnin']

You're right, and you should never crash a perfectly flying widebody into the Everglades over one malfunctioning light bulb. And you should never slam a perfectly flying 757 into a Columbian mountainside over a FMS/lost issue. And you should never take off on the wrong runway, especially when it's only 3,500 feet long. But you know what? Sh*t happens.

Give me an airplane, and I will give you a situation in which someone, even an experienced pilot, will end in an UNDESIRABLE state. And I include an approach to stall in this. Things happen, and all we can do is study it, learn from it, and modify whatever needs to be fixed. There is no doubt the Colgain training department could use an overhaul/change. And, there is no doubt that current scheduling/rest regulations could use a change, along with addressing fatigue issues.

I appreciate your loyalty, but in your examples you are only comparing lack of CRM and SA with lack of stick and rudders skills.

 

[Flyer1015]

I appreciate your loyalty, but in your examples you are only comparing lack of CRM and SA with lack of stick and rudders skills.

Oops, ok lack of stick and rudder skills perfectly highlights the last major legacy disaster, AA over Belle Harbor. Who would have thought that FULL deflections of the rudder, to the stop, each way, 6 times in a row, could have resulted in the rudder snapping off?

There have been plenty of crashes that have been a result of a lack of stick/rudder skills. Time will tell, but don't be surprised if the recent Fedex crash ends up falling in the same category.

 

[Top Gum]

Was anything ever determined on the cause of the recent fedex crash?

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

The FedEx crash will, like this one, have alot more factors than just stick and rudder skills.

 

[F/O]

Yep.

Its negative training. I'm trained to perform a stall maneuver....Not recover from an inadvertent stall that I got myself into.

True, but an actual inadvertent stall recovery should be EASIER. We have all done 'em in the sim. You have a laundry list of configuration crap to remember for the entry and recovery, including power settings, etc. If one happened in real life I'm sure most people would revert to "old school" crap. Power, pitch, FLY OUT OF IT. You aren't demonstrating in for a check airman, you are trying to save your life. It just seems this guy was out to lunch on basic airmanship he should have remembered from his 3rd or 4th private lesson.

 

[Top Gum]

Was this guy out to lunch when the shaker went off or what? Did they do anything? The shaker should have started well before the stall and pusher. It should have allowed plenty of time to initiate a recovery prior to the stall and pusher.

So they were just trolling along waiting on the loc and forgot to add power after they leveled off. Then the shaker started. Then it kept going off. Then it stalled and then the pusher kicked in. Then he pulls back. Wtf.

I’m just having a hard time with all of this.

 

[Minimaniac]

Raise your hand if you've been taught by a Part 121 airline during the stall recovery section of simulator training to not lose altitude at all costs, no matter how long you keep it in the shaker, how much you ride the barber pole, and how close you get to a pusher.

"Don't let the nose drop!"

Um, nope. While the final test standard for a level flight stall was up to 100 feet of altitude loss, I never failed if I lost 120 feet. I have been instructed to fly until the pusher to get a feel for it, but I also have been taught to get the heck away from the pusher. If the pusher is on, you are in way too deep. And in any deep stall, you are going to have to accept an altitude loss. For a shaker only "stall", there is no reason to lose altitude (100 feet allowable). For a full stall, it has always been about getting the airplane flying again. End of story.

This has been my training experience at three carriers. I can understand your experience may have been different. It happens.

 

[AEROSQUADRON69]

We can all sit here and say this and that. Clearly the basics were lost. Call it a "MOMENTARY LAPSE OF REASON"

They got slow, got spooked at shaker, yanked back on the stick. The rest is history. Sad, but true.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Was this guy out to lunch when the shaker went off or what? Did they do anything? The shaker should have started well before the stall and pusher. It should have allowed plenty of time to initiate a recovery prior to the stall and pusher.

So they were just trolling along waiting on the loc and forgot to add power after they leveled off. Then the shaker started. Then it kept going off. Then it stalled and then the pusher kicked in. Then he pulls back. Wtf.

I’m just having a hard time with all of this.

Yep. 6 seconds of shaker to be exact. And then pusher. This is all while continually increasing pitch.

 

[HOMER D POE]

rebecca raised the flaps without a request..

Did the FO raising the flaps and thereby killing what lift they had with gear and ice cause this crash?
the transcripts show no call for flaps up... sounds pretty much like she helped this plane crash...

 

[LazyLightnin']

Did the FO raising the flaps and thereby killing what lift they had with gear and ice cause this crash?
the transcripts show no call for flaps up... sounds pretty much like she helped this plane crash...

What she should have done is gone into flight instructor mode. That is, if she had one.

 

[Flyer1015]

Listen to all you sounding like God's gift to aviation and, from the comfort of your leather seat in front of your PC, crucifying the crew and their actions.

Why don't ya'll STFU until the official and final report comes out, and see what recommendations it puts out? My bet? Changes in stall profiles for all airlines, stall training TO INCLUDE pusher, etc.

 

[Flyer1015]

Was anything ever determined on the cause of the recent fedex crash?

No, but neither was anything officially released by the NTSB about Colgan, when everybody started to "assume" tail plane icing and an icing over accident, and that turboprops must be unsafe, etc. etc. etc.

 

[enigma]

I'm just not sure what there is to learn from this accident, really.

discipline is necessary for continued life

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

Flyer, I am amazed at your refusal to see the obvious and instead rationalize away the fact that this guy - this crew - screwed up in a big, unacceptable way. They stalled the airplane. Stalled it. It matters not that possibly you or I might do the same someday, or something equally stupid. If you or I do, then we would fully deserve the blame for the resulting senseless accident. If I were a betting man, my money would be that this accident will be squarely placed on the shoulders of the crew, in particular the pilot. Contributing factors may very well end up being training, work environment, etc., but they will almost certainly not be be considered causal.

 

[LJ45]

Instead of three boring stall maneuvers in the block during sim, how about one at altitude, one with your eyes closed ( similar to unusual att. recovery).? Along the way, learn some basic airmanship. i.e. stick and rudder skills, instrument scan.

 

[LazyLightnin']

Listen to all you sounding like God's gift to aviation and, from the comfort of your leather seat in front of your PC, crucifying the crew and their actions.

Why don't ya'll STFU until the official and final report comes out, and see what recommendations it puts out? My bet? Changes in stall profiles for all airlines, stall training TO INCLUDE pusher, etc.

Look. No one wanted this accident to happen. And I certainly do not enjoy the fact that it is the current topic of discussion, nor do I think so highly of myself that nothing bad can ever happen. But the fact of the matter is, the OFFICIAL facts have been disclosed. The crew screwed up. And on the FINAL report it will say crew error. Pilot’s failure to maintain adequate airspeed, resulting in an accelerated stall at an altitude too low for recovery. With a list of many other contributing factors. They just got way too behind that airplane and never caught up. I'm sorry that's too sad for you to grasp. You made your bet and now I'm making mine.


Even the uber-professionals feel this way.
"Wally Warner, a Bombardier test pilot who testified Tuesday, said he believes that the pilot could have overcome the stall that caused the crash"
"Obviously, the initial reaction to the stall warning was incorrect, and that set the course of action for what followed", Warner said.

 

[climbhappy]

really, the report is 7/8 of the way if not 9/10 out. is it not.?

 

[30West]

Apparently it is the following procedure:

1) do not add power.
2) pull on the stick pusher as it is trying to push forward.
3) retract flaps.
4) retract gear.

Yes, I feel these guys are being pretty badly hammered in the media. But someone please help me to understand this...

Not on the Saab. What are you getting at here, exactly?

 

[30West]

Flyer, I am amazed at your refusal to see the obvious and instead rationalize away the fact that this guy - this crew - screwed up in a big, unacceptable way. They stalled the airplane. Stalled it. It matters not that possibly you or I might do the same someday, or something equally stupid. If you or I do, then we would fully deserve the blame for the resulting senseless accident.

That being the case, how do you, or anyone for that matter, feel it's your place to judge, given by your own admission it could happen to you someday? What purpose does it serve to slam these guys on public forums?
A true professional will listen to the facts and circumstances, make his or her own reflections and hopefully take something away from it and maybe even change the way they do something, rather than turn it into an online mob beating.

 

[Long Time Gone]

Not only did he stall the aircraft, but was severely uncoordinated at the time. Look at the rudder pedals on the animation. His carelessness put that aircraft into a spin, and she put the nail in the coffin by retracting the flaps on her own during the spin. They lost 2300 ft in under 30 seconds, a descent rate of about 5000fpm.

 

[Flyer1015]

Flyer, I am amazed at your refusal to see the obvious and instead rationalize away the fact that this guy - this crew - screwed up in a big, unacceptable way. They stalled the airplane. Stalled it. It matters not that possibly you or I might do the same someday, or something equally stupid. If you or I do, then we would fully deserve the blame for the resulting senseless accident. If I were a betting man, my money would be that this accident will be squarely placed on the shoulders of the crew, in particular the pilot. Contributing factors may very well end up being training, work environment, etc., but they will almost certainly not be be considered causal.

Give it a rest! I'm amazed at the lack of professionalism and idiot-ism displayed by everyone bantering this crew and speaking of them own selves as god's gift to aviation. Dead men can't defend themselves. Why don't you put a lid on it and comment once the final NTSB report comes out, and THEN see where the official blame lies (bad training program, Colgan's policies, it's a joke).

 

[AAsRedHeadedbro]

30West and Fyer, you guys shock and anger me. Who the ******************** are you to tell me and all of the other guys who agree with me that I am unprofessional for seeing exactly what happened, and yes...calling him out?! This guy who called himself a pilot deserves to be criticized in public in the strongest possible way for what he did to those 48 unsuspecting people who had to ride the ship down with him after he leveled the airplane and forgot to add power until it was too late. In 24 years of flying and 18 years with my airline, I have never, I'll say it again, NEVER seen anybody do that. He made a hugely UNPROFESSIONAL error that cost 48 people their lives and destroyed as many families, including his own and his first officer's. This guy deserves no sympathy. None. If he'd simply killed himself, that would be one thing, but through his glaring ineptitude, he killed himself and 49 other people.

Ask the families he destroyed if they feel we should somehow not be so harsh on him!

And if I were to kill a bunch of passengers through my ineptitude, hell yes I'd deserve to be damned. I would have earned it. Hell yes.

You have some ********************ing nerve defending this guy on any level and then getting on my ******************** and and calling me unprofessional. You don't know me. I'll just call you unprofessional for having the gall and audacity to defend this guy on any level.

I don't know why I ever come back to this board!

 

[airplane wizard]

You would had you perceived it to be a tailplane icing stall.

would the shaker go off if it was a tail stall?

 

[LazyLightnin']

would the shaker go off if it was a tail stall?

No. The shaker is a function of slow airspeed. And no matter what kind of stall it is, the plane won't fly without adequate airspeed. It's science.

 

[Andy Neill]

And no matter what kind of stall it is, the plane won't fly without adequate airspeed.

But in the case of a tail plane stall, the problem is excess airspeed requiring the tail to be at an angle of attack creating the stall. If the aircraft is slowed, the stall goes away....but that wasn't the problem here.

 

[IBNAV8R]

The stall (hence shaker and pusher) is purely a function of AOA. To recover from a stall, the wing must attain a flyable AOA. To fly, there must be sufficient dynamic forces (speed) to support the aircraft at a flyable AOA.

Well short of being god's gift to aviation, I am expert enough to draw my own conclusions from the depicted data. While I have never actually experienced a tailplane stall, I know enough to tell the control inputs indicate the crew believed they were trying to recover from this, and not a wing stall.

Anyone else notice the plane had enough energy to climb even after activation of the pusher? Even in the stall, and after the flaps were raised, rudder inputs were effective at bringing the wings back to level. Of course I wasn't there but, I can safely say this was recoverable well after first roll departure. Raising the flaps coincided with the vertical rate reversal. This might have made a difference but clearly the Captain did not appear to be gaining control. It would be speculation, on my part, to say it was recoverable after the second roll departure but once entered, the rudder inputs stopped. Again, speculation, but did he quit trying at this point?

Are there really people on here that think the FDR/CVR data is going to somehow change in the final report?

 

[8inMan]

We can all sit here and say this and that. Clearly the basics were lost. Call it a "MOMENTARY LAPSE OF REASON"

They got slow, got spooked at shaker, yanked back on the stick. The rest is history. Sad, but true.

I agree.

 

[airplane wizard]

Apparently it is the following procedure:

1) do not add power.
2) pull on the stick pusher as it is trying to push forward.
3) retract flaps.
4) retract gear.

Yes, I feel these guys are being pretty badly hammered in the media. But someone please help me to understand this...

Ailerons and rudder-------------> full cross control
control inputs--------------------> Maintain until ground impact