Colgan Airlines stall recovery

[flynryan15]

Just curious does the Q400 have a trend vector on the air speed tape?

 

[Thurman Merman]

Just curious does the Q400 have a trend vector on the air speed tape?

Yes, it does.

 

[Thurman Merman]

Thanks for the link. Does the real q400 has glass pfd like the one shown in the video? How about autothrottle? AOA indicator?

Everytime I watch one of these, it just reminds me that we're all vulnerable at one point of our career...

Yes on the PFD, the Q400 has 5 flat screen display CA/FO-PFD, MFD and 1 ED (engine dispaly). No autothrottle, but FADEC, no AOA.

 

[flynryan15]

Yes, it does.

I can only reference the ERJ, but I am assuming that it would have been full down once flaps 5 was selected?

 

[BLing]

Everybody here is missing the real point. DONT STALL!!! Its really not that hard. Stall recovery profiles should NEVER be used on the line because you should NEVER unintentionally stall an aircraft...

 

[flynryan15]

Everybody here is missing the real point. DONT STALL!!! Its really not that hard. Stall recovery profiles should NEVER be used on the line because you should NEVER unintentionally stall an aircraft...

Agreed!!

 

[F/O]

It's not like it was a beautiful CAVU spring day where they both could have been distracted by something out the window. In icing conditions you would be glancing out the window at the leading edges from time to time, but other than that wouldn't you be mostly staring at the PFD right in front of your face? The one with the amber and red vertical tape thingy showing the airspeed dropping through the floor at an alarming rate?

 

[lowtimedriver]

Colgan FO:

22:16:26.6
HOT-2
uhhh.

The stick shaker started about a second later. You think she saw something?

I think she may have notice something wasn't right even earlier at 16.07. On the actual tape, she definitely sounded distressed when she was handed over to the tower.

 

[Flyer1015]

Everybody here is missing the real point. DONT STALL!!! Its really not that hard. Stall recovery profiles should NEVER be used on the line because you should NEVER unintentionally stall an aircraft...

If it is even a possibility an airplane can stall, then at some point, there will be a stall. Inadvertant, of course, but you are in NO position to judge the other person. There can be a multitude of reasons. OBVIOUSLY IT WAS UN-INTENTIONAL. No one wakes up and says, yup, I'm gonna stall and crash this plane today! It was an un-desired state the aircraft ended up in, and then a botched recovery due largely to a POOR training program. Add to this LONG TIRING SCHEDULES, tiredness from a long day, fatigue, and you get a recipe in which an UN-DESIRED state can occurn in an aircraft (re: stall).

There is no single cause for an accident, but a bunch of links coming together to form the chain.

 

[lowtimedriver]

There is no single cause for an accident, but a bunch of links coming together to form the chain.

Like non-stop chitter chatter while conducting an ILS approach in icing conditions?

 

[Andy Neill]

Actually they were at flaps 15:

22:16:23.5
HOT-1 flaps fifteen before landing checklist.
22:16:26.0
CAM [sound similar to flap handle movement]

Actually, it looks like flaps 10 according to the FDR based animation. That is also consistent with what has been stated as Colgan procedure to stop at intermediate increments like flaps 10 prior to flaps 15.

 

[LazyLightnin']

He got stick shaker and pitched up to 25 degrees for 7 seconds before getting stick pusher. I'm still scratching my head. That would have been perfect for demonstrating MCA. Flame me all you want, but I can't help but think.. "buffoon".

 

[777forever]

If pilot error is to blame, it is the training program that should be primarily blamed. Stall profiles at airlines need to be changed. And not to mention, fatiuge and scheduling rules need to be changed, but the FAA will not give a rats as$ when power airline lobbyists use their "pressure."

Why is the training program to be blamed? All my training from private to 121 has taught the same type of recovery from a stall. Lower nose, increase airspeed, pitch up when sufficient airflow over wings, and level off and clean it up at previous altitude.

Raise your hand if you've been taught by a Part 121 airline during the stall recovery section of simulator training to not lose altitude at all costs, no matter how long you keep it in the shaker, how much you ride the barber pole, and how close you get to a pusher.

"Don't let the nose drop!"

I know my 121 training didn't tell me to pitch up to 31 degrees at full power with airspeed decaying...

I will continue to believe that this crash was not a result of a poor training program, but of distraction and fatigue.

 

[Flyer1015]

Why is the training program to be blamed? All my training from private to 121 has taught the same type of recovery from a stall. Lower nose, increase airspeed, pitch up when sufficient airflow over wings, and level off and clean it up at previous altitude.

If you do max power and IMMEDIATELY lower the nose, the shaker will stop, and that is not what we were taught in the sim.

Sorry, hard to believe that your training program INITIALLY told you to lower the nose! At my airline, on the CRJ, for both the take off stall and landing stall, you do max power, and you DO NOT lower the nose initially. In fact, in the landing stall, we were taught to hold a lil back pressure to keep it in the flight director. For the takeoff stall, we were taught to hold it back (in the shaker) and let the airspeed increase, while the shaker continues to go off. ONLY ONCE AIRSPEED came back up and VSI was creeping up, DID WE FINALLY DROP THE NOSE and then clean up per profile and maintain original altitude and entry speed (200KIAS).

 

[Flyer1015]

I know my 121 training didn't tell me to pitch up to 31 degrees at full power with airspeed decaying...

You would had you perceived it to be a tailplane icing stall.

 

[Flyer1015]

He got stick shaker and pitched up to 25 degrees for 7 seconds before getting stick pusher. I'm still scratching my head. That would have been perfect for demonstrating MCA. Flame me all you want, but I can't help but think.. "buffoon".

So was Sten Molin a buffoon, too?

 

[Abernathy]

Why is the training program to be blamed? All my training from private to 121 has taught the same type of recovery from a stall. Lower nose, increase airspeed, pitch up when sufficient airflow over wings, and level off and clean it up at previous altitude.



I know my 121 training didn't tell me to pitch up to 31 degrees at full power with airspeed decaying...

I will continue to believe that this crash was not a result of a poor training program, but of distraction and fatigue.

I have to agree that at least at my airline, on either airplane, we were never taught to pull up when we got the stick shaker. That's fundamental flying stuff you learn from the very beginning. And I've never been told "not to lose any altitude." If I ever pitched up more than my current attitude during a power off stall (not to mention, 30 degrees with a trend vector aiming for Hades), I believe it would get an unsat.

Watching the animation, it almost looks like the CA had a certain "flow" in his mind (gotta get the flaps at 5 HERE, gotta get the flaps 15 HERE)--airspeed and other exogenous factors (icing?) be damned.

And why the FO put the flaps up without being called for (even if they were called for at that point) boggles my mind.

 

[BLing]

If it is even a possibility an airplane can stall, then at some point, there will be a stall. Inadvertant, of course, but you are in NO position to judge the other person. There can be a multitude of reasons. OBVIOUSLY IT WAS UN-INTENTIONAL. No one wakes up and says, yup, I'm gonna stall and crash this plane today! It was an un-desired state the aircraft ended up in, and then a botched recovery due largely to a POOR training program. Add to this LONG TIRING SCHEDULES, tiredness from a long day, fatigue, and you get a recipe in which an UN-DESIRED state can occurn in an aircraft (re: stall).

There is no single cause for an accident, but a bunch of links coming together to form the chain.

Like 99% of other pilots out there, I dont stall airplanes, therefore not needing to see if my training department has taught me proper stall recovery.

You want to bring up the chain...

- GIA
- Busted rides 1 - 5 (2 at Colgan)
- Colgan allowing this into the left seat of an airliner
- Pointless converseation below 10 diverting attention from the flight
- Stall

Not everybody is cut out to be a pilot. For years this sort of accident was predicted on FI and it has happend. As an RJ driver I am embarrased to see the level of skill out on the line. Not to say I havent had some interesting jumpseat experiences on mainline though....

 

[DashCojones]

If it's true that this CA only reported one of his failures to Colgan, may his eternal soul burn in hell.

 

[LazyLightnin']

So was Sten Molin a buffoon, too?

You can name a hundred other men who in the past have caused a crash and it doesn't change the fact that this buffoon did the complete opposite for a stall recovery.

 

[K.V.]

So was Sten Molin a buffoon, too?

Yes. But that's apples to oranges clown

 

[LittleDeuce]

Cvr

The Safety guy at Colgan, Mr Morgan, wants to use a random sample of CVR data to monitor sterle cockpit.

I think the NTSB Chairman made it clear that is a bad idea.

 

[8inMan]

The thing I can't believe is the media reporting that the NTSB says that icing was not a factor. Are you kidding me? Is the NTSB really saying this? Icing was obviously the BIGGEST factor in this accident. True, it was pilot error in letting the airspeed deteriorate, but if the airplane wasn't covered in ice it would have stalled at a much lower airspeed. Not to mention how distracted the crew was by the whole idea of ice being on the airplane.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

Raise your hand if you've been taught by a Part 121 airline during the stall recovery section of simulator training to not lose altitude at all costs, no matter how long you keep it in the shaker, how much you ride the barber pole, and how close you get to a pusher.

"Don't let the nose drop!"

Yep.

Its negative training. I'm trained to perform a stall maneuver....Not recover from an inadvertent stall that I got myself into.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

The thing I can't believe is the media reporting that the NTSB says that icing was not a factor. Are you kidding me? Is the NTSB really saying this? Icing was obviously the BIGGEST factor in this accident. True, it was pilot error in letting the airspeed deteriorate, but if the airplane wasn't covered in ice it would have stalled at a much lower airspeed. Not to mention how distracted the crew was by the whole idea of ice being on the airplane.

Uhhh no. Try again. The crew may have thought they had a tailplane stall but one look at the asi would have given them a clue.

 

[Flyer1015]

Like 99% of other pilots out there, I dont stall airplanes, therefore not needing to see if my training department has taught me proper stall recovery.

No one stalls on PURPOSE! It's when a bunch of factors come into play, attention diverted (maybe a turn from base to final, eyes out, and speed drops while spoilers were out), adding the fact this is leg 6 of 6 and you're pushing a 14+ hr duty day.

The point is it can happen even to YOU, no matter how "good" a pilot you think you are. I'm utterly shocked and disappointed how QUICKLY idiots on this forum are willing to throw this crew under the bus and saying things like "I would have never done that" , instead of learning from the greater ramifications of the accident, and the factors all involved. $50 bucks says that the Colgan training program, stall profiles, and scheduling/fatigue will be blamed as the main, heavy factors in this accident.

 

[LazyLightnin']

I'm just not sure what there is to learn from this accident, really.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I'm just not sure what there is to learn from this accident, really.

That the never ending quest to "never compromise savings" is burying this industry and people along with it.

The question is- will any true corrections be made from it?

 

[Flyer1015]

That the never ending quest to "never compromise savings" is burying this industry and people along with it.

The question is- will any true corrections be made from it?

Nope. They lobbying from the ATA will be too powerful for the FAA to get off their as$ and do something. Same old, same old.

 

[bacardi]

Everybody here is missing the real point. DONT STALL!!! Its really not that hard. Stall recovery profiles should NEVER be used on the line because you should NEVER unintentionally stall an aircraft...

Thank you!!!!!!