Colgan 3407 Down in Buffalo

[dispatchguy]

True, I believe the NTSB will really be looking hard at Total Time in Type.

Does Colgan have Green on Green rules?

While those are a reg, carriers can get an exemption to green on green for a certain period of time after introducing a new type of aircraft, in order to get crews experience in the aircraft; sorta the chicken and egg argument - how would u pair aircrew for a new aircraft type in service, if no one has the 75h in type (I think youre no longer "green" at 75; but I could be wrong)

 

[cale42]

Its still hard for me to believe ice brought them down.

I'm inclined to agree.. but theres no doubt theres some denial on my part as I fly these things in a boatload of ice every day.

cale

On another note a cnn analyst just said that conditions were prime for carb icing..

 

[Flyin2low]

All I gotta say is remember Atlantic Coast Airlines circa 1995 when they first got their J-41's. Remember the CMH accident? Pilots new to automation basically reduced power to near idle to configure and descend on the glide slope and forgot to add it back in. Airplane stalled and fell to the ground before they could recover.

 

[dh82dvr]

Very sad day. My thoughts and prayers are with all the families and everyone at Colgan.

Colgan guy 2000 - 2005

 

[trainer8]

I'm inclined to agree.. but theres no doubt theres some denial on my part as I fly these things in a boatload of ice every day.

cale

On another note a cnn analyst just said that conditions were prime for carb icing..

Must have been Miles...he is a Private Pilot.

 

[joe_pilot]

I swear CNN just reported that "Carburetor ice can occur on fuel injected engines and could have been a serious problem".

Wow.

My thoughts go out to the families of the crew, the jumpseater and the passengers.

 

[blzr]

I'm inclined to agree.. but theres no doubt theres some denial on my part as I fly these things in a boatload of ice every day.

cale

On another note a cnn analyst just said that conditions were prime for carb icing..

I was just informed by cnn that DHC-8 has balloons on the wings. Also that turbo props are not rated for icing...WTF?

 

[zasca]

What's really disturbing to me is that I was supposed to fly a dash up to BUF late last night but got canceled because of the huge delays. EWR was showing 5 hour delays yesterday. Makes me wonder how long they were on duty yesterday. Fatigue will kill your awareness as we all know....

Godspeed

 

[CRJ puppy]

Since they were landing on runway 23, I have just two words to say:

False Glideslope.

Anyone who has flown into KBUF alot knows what I'm talking about. It's notamed in a 'round about way but if you capture it, all seems normal at first and then it just abruptly drops you to the ground way before the airport.

Easy to figure out in VMC, but much harder in IMC, especially if not expecting it or are distracted, tired, etc.

Anyway, may all on board and the one on the ground rest peacefully. A terrible tradegy no matter the cause.

 

[cale42]

Just now CNN says the FAA requires we disengage the autopilot every 5 minutes in icing. I love when I learn new regs via the news...

Can't believe we got to page 10 before someone mentioned fatigue.. I'm guessing we are going to learn there was a nice 10+ hour high leg day, as zasca said.. awareness goes to hell..

 

[AceCrackshot]

Just now CNN says the FAA requires we disengage the autopilot every 5 minutes in icing. I love when I learn new regs via the news...

Can't believe we got to page 10 before someone mentioned fatigue.. I'm guessing we are going to learn there was a nice 10+ hour high leg day, as zasca said.. awareness goes to hell..

Yep...I think everyone who has flown for a Regional for more than about two weeks has a fatigue/awareness story. Throw in the requirement to commute for many (Esp. when airline basing is less consistant than a hot dog vendor) and you've just got the conditions for extended fatigue.

 

[trainer8]

Trainer I was in college in Wilminton NC crushing beers chasing tail in 1994 during the Eagle Crash. But weren't those guys holding in ice with the flaps deployed to lower the nose? Causing major ICE bridging.

Yes, our SOP's now is if you enter icing condition boots go on at Fast Mode.

And yes depending on the ice we (or I) bump up the approach speeds.

Its still hard for me to believe ice brought them down.

Me, too. It fits a tailplane icing stall profile event. I've played in the Q400 Sim in Downsview, Ontario when it was being certified (1998...yeah, I'm old) but never in-depth stuff.

Tailplane icing profile is final approach in icing, input landing flaps, and wooop!...upset happens. Tailplane stall recovery is opposite of a conventional wing stall recovery if memory serves me (it's tougher each year). T-Tail may be different then conventional stab. I dunno...

Roselawn was a holding in icing conditions event. Icing caused airflow blockage to the ailerons. The autopilot compensated until in couldn't. Captain took control of the airplane with loaded yoke pressure and couldn't recover from the hard over. The outworkings of that crash spawned all kinds of bulletins and SOP/POH revisions. The CVR was scary. They tried to hard fly out of it all the way to the ground.

I used to wait till I got an half inch of ice built up on the Dash to blow the boots....and for fun I'd do a segment at a time and watch the airspeed recover. When they said to turn it on and leave it on, alot of us old timers were afraid of ice bridging on the boots. But, deHavilland was right; they kept it relatively clean.

T8

 

[RiddleEagle18]

What's really disturbing to me is that I was supposed to fly a dash up to BUF late last night but got canceled because of the huge delays. EWR was showing 5 hour delays yesterday. Makes me wonder how long they were on duty yesterday. Fatigue will kill your awareness as we all know....

Godspeed

Dont worry fatigue will be overlooked yet again. At comair the NTSB spent nearly two days during the final hearings on less than 10 seconds of non pertinent conversation that took place and ruled that as a major contributing factor.

Forget the fact that both pilots were fatigued and the signage and jepp plates were wrong.

While not any condolance to the familys, I hope this crew is vindicated.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Well, only disconnect every five minutes if you're doing a Cat IIIB in a 747 over the Pacific. The anchor actually had to interrupt his ridiculous monolouge and explain what he was getting at which was basically nothing. He was even reading from his notes probably from Wikipedia. John Wiley, BACA contributor and CNN resident moron.

 

[CrownandCoke]

as Cale mentioned, I fly these things in icing conditions every day. I highly doubt it was just ice that brought this bird down. I'm guessing fatigue is playing a part here. When you're owned by Pinnacle who has had an accident relating to fatigue already, I wouldn't be surprised.