Colgan 3407 Down in Buffalo

[aewanabe]

God Bless. Prayers to the families and all of you at Colgan. RIP

 

[WSurf]

CNN had a pilot on last night that sounded like he knew what the hell was going on.

When the Reported asked about fuel on board and he said with the weather they might have been carrying 4-5k pounds the reporter thought that was way too much gas. Jeeez...

Sometimes it hard to sit back and listen to these idiots speak of nothing they know about. And its even worse to watch them disagree with someone that they have on that knows there sh$t.

 

[benfrueh]

Prayers for the crew and company

My heart sank when I heard about this this morning. I flew at Colgan for 4 years, 2002-2006. Great group of pilots and FAs. My prayers are with you all.

I read about this and it reminds me of Eagle 4184 in Roselawn in '94.

 

[WSurf]

Those are probably total times in which case I'd say it wasn't an experienced crew by any stretch.

True, I believe the NTSB will really be looking hard at Total Time in Type.

Does Colgan have Green on Green rules?

 

[Tarzan]

Lord give comfort to the families.

Just saw one guy on CNN that talked like he was a cop and sounded pretty credible with his description.

Plane was evidently going nearly the opposite direction from what he was accustomed to. Plane was also in a left bank with a nose attitude. Apparently this became steeper because the house that was struck was fairly close to the other two and no significant damage to the other two homes.

He also said the engines sounded extremely odd. Have a prop that has gone into beta would attribute to all the symptoms. Listened to the ATC tape as well. Creepy. One second they there and the next, gone.

 

[WSurf]

People must have great eyes to know how a plane is coming down at night at probably 200kts with 3 miles of visibility.

 

[Broke in CVG]

People must have great eyes to know how a plane is coming down at night at probably 200kts with 3 miles of visibility.

According to CNN it was 3mph of visibility which would give them plenty of time as everything would be in extreme slow motion.

 

[Captain X]

I'm so sick of hearing about ******************** like this.

Do Colgan's Q's have FOQA output?

 

[WSurf]

According to CNN it was 3mph of visibility which would give them plenty of time as everything would be in extreme slow motion.

Can they land with 3mph visibility?

 

[trainer8]

We get this caution light all the time in Decent in the Dash 8 300 when the bleeds go from LP to HP on a flight idle decent. Boots are still effective so no problem existed in the Dash 8/300 series. If you want the caution light to go out, just have to add alittle power.

Common for the -100/-200 series also. Rare to have it stay on after the valves cycled. If it did, it was written up.

deHavilland published several tailplane icing bulletins for the Dash-8 series in the mid-1990's after NASA's research used the DHC-6 (remember those videos in Recurrent?)

After the Eagle ATR Roselawn crash in 1994 (we're you at PDT then Surf?), deHavilland published a bulletin to operate in icing conditions with the boots cycling continuously (fast mode). I don't know if that applied to the Q400. I've been gone from PDT for 5 years and don't know if that is still SOP there.

The Dash-8 carries ice very well and not only can you see it, you can hear it as it builds, disrupting the normal slipstream airflow around the cockpit and on the wiperblades. If we carried ice on approach, we always bumped the ref speeds up, as recommended for tailplane icing.

This BUF crash is heartbreaking. My condolences to the families of the crew and pax and their loved ones.

T8

 

[cale42]

The DEICE Caution light is a nuisance light more than anything in the Q400. It is not a failure of the deice equipment. I've had the light at least a half dozen times and never had a boot fail to inflate.

The Q handles ice quite well.. plane SOP is to turn the boots on as soon as ice is initially detected, no buildup like a lot of boots. On fast cycle the boots blow every minute, I've never seen any significant ice build up. Lot of indications sound like a tail stall, but its just hard to imagine much ice building up on the tail of a Q.

For whoever mentioned green on green, most of those rules are only 100 hours per seat, so a 3 year captain and a 1 year FO would be no where near this.

Godspeed to all involved.. its scary when its your own type of aircraft..

cale

 

[AV1ATRX]

One thing I haven't seen mentioned, and may not have anything whatsoever to do with this accident, but the pressure was VERY low in the northeast yesterday. I triple-checked the current altimeter setting all day because it's just weird to have them down around 29.00. The contoller didn't mention anything about them being at any wrong altitudes, so I doubt it's a factor, but something to consider.

 

[TxPilot0878]

Godspeed!

Obviously this will be a learning event...noone puts themselves in a situation that would have this kind of outcome. The details I have no doubt will show that the crew had a circumstance handed to them that was unnatural, unheard of, and unbelievable.

My heart goes out to the crew, the passengers, the people on the ground and for all of their families!!!

 

[www.]

For whoever mentioned green on green, most of those rules are only 100 hours per seat, so a 3 year captain and a 1 year FO would be no where near this.

- Captain Marvin Renslow joined Colgan on September 9, 2005. Captain Renslow had flown 3,379 hours with Colgan Air.
- First Officer Rebecca Shaw joined Colgan on January 16, 2008. Ms. Shaw had flown 2,244 hours with Colgan Air.


Most junior Q400 capt hired: Sept 2005

It appears that he flew the Saab at Colgan first then upgraded to the Dash 8 on 11/18/2008.

 

[WSurf]

Common for the -100/-200 series also. Rare to have it stay on after the valves cycled. If it did, it was written up.

deHavilland published several tailplane icing bulletins for the Dash-8 series in the mid-1990's after NASA's research used the DHC-6 (remember those videos in Recurrent?)

After the Eagle ATR Roselawn crash in 1994 (we're you at PDT then Surf?), deHavilland published a bulletin to operate in icing conditions with the boots cycling continuously (fast mode). I don't know if that applied to the Q400. I've been gone from PDT for 5 years and don't know if that is still SOP there.

The Dash-8 carries ice very well and not only can you see it, you can hear it as it builds, disrupting the normal slipstream airflow around the cockpit and on the wiperblades. If we carried ice on approach, we always bumped the ref speeds up, as recommended for tailplane icing.

This BUF crash is heartbreaking. My condolences to the families of the crew and pax and their loved ones.

T8

Trainer I was in college in Wilminton NC crushing beers chasing tail in 1994 during the Eagle Crash. But weren't those guys holding in ice with the flaps deployed to lower the nose? Causing major ICE bridging.

Yes, our SOP's now is if you enter icing condition boots go on at Fast Mode.

And yes depending on the ice we (or I) bump up the approach speeds.

Its still hard for me to believe ice brought them down.

 

[dispatchguy]

True, I believe the NTSB will really be looking hard at Total Time in Type.

Does Colgan have Green on Green rules?

While those are a reg, carriers can get an exemption to green on green for a certain period of time after introducing a new type of aircraft, in order to get crews experience in the aircraft; sorta the chicken and egg argument - how would u pair aircrew for a new aircraft type in service, if no one has the 75h in type (I think youre no longer "green" at 75; but I could be wrong)

 

[cale42]

Its still hard for me to believe ice brought them down.

I'm inclined to agree.. but theres no doubt theres some denial on my part as I fly these things in a boatload of ice every day.

cale

On another note a cnn analyst just said that conditions were prime for carb icing..

 

[Flyin2low]

All I gotta say is remember Atlantic Coast Airlines circa 1995 when they first got their J-41's. Remember the CMH accident? Pilots new to automation basically reduced power to near idle to configure and descend on the glide slope and forgot to add it back in. Airplane stalled and fell to the ground before they could recover.

 

[dh82dvr]

Very sad day. My thoughts and prayers are with all the families and everyone at Colgan.

Colgan guy 2000 - 2005

 

[trainer8]

I'm inclined to agree.. but theres no doubt theres some denial on my part as I fly these things in a boatload of ice every day.

cale

On another note a cnn analyst just said that conditions were prime for carb icing..

Must have been Miles...he is a Private Pilot.

 

[joe_pilot]

I swear CNN just reported that "Carburetor ice can occur on fuel injected engines and could have been a serious problem".

Wow.

My thoughts go out to the families of the crew, the jumpseater and the passengers.

 

[blzr]

I'm inclined to agree.. but theres no doubt theres some denial on my part as I fly these things in a boatload of ice every day.

cale

On another note a cnn analyst just said that conditions were prime for carb icing..

I was just informed by cnn that DHC-8 has balloons on the wings. Also that turbo props are not rated for icing...WTF?

 

[zasca]

What's really disturbing to me is that I was supposed to fly a dash up to BUF late last night but got canceled because of the huge delays. EWR was showing 5 hour delays yesterday. Makes me wonder how long they were on duty yesterday. Fatigue will kill your awareness as we all know....

Godspeed

 

[CRJ puppy]

Since they were landing on runway 23, I have just two words to say:

False Glideslope.

Anyone who has flown into KBUF alot knows what I'm talking about. It's notamed in a 'round about way but if you capture it, all seems normal at first and then it just abruptly drops you to the ground way before the airport.

Easy to figure out in VMC, but much harder in IMC, especially if not expecting it or are distracted, tired, etc.

Anyway, may all on board and the one on the ground rest peacefully. A terrible tradegy no matter the cause.

 

[cale42]

Just now CNN says the FAA requires we disengage the autopilot every 5 minutes in icing. I love when I learn new regs via the news...

Can't believe we got to page 10 before someone mentioned fatigue.. I'm guessing we are going to learn there was a nice 10+ hour high leg day, as zasca said.. awareness goes to hell..

 

[AceCrackshot]

Just now CNN says the FAA requires we disengage the autopilot every 5 minutes in icing. I love when I learn new regs via the news...

Can't believe we got to page 10 before someone mentioned fatigue.. I'm guessing we are going to learn there was a nice 10+ hour high leg day, as zasca said.. awareness goes to hell..

Yep...I think everyone who has flown for a Regional for more than about two weeks has a fatigue/awareness story. Throw in the requirement to commute for many (Esp. when airline basing is less consistant than a hot dog vendor) and you've just got the conditions for extended fatigue.

 

[trainer8]

Trainer I was in college in Wilminton NC crushing beers chasing tail in 1994 during the Eagle Crash. But weren't those guys holding in ice with the flaps deployed to lower the nose? Causing major ICE bridging.

Yes, our SOP's now is if you enter icing condition boots go on at Fast Mode.

And yes depending on the ice we (or I) bump up the approach speeds.

Its still hard for me to believe ice brought them down.

Me, too. It fits a tailplane icing stall profile event. I've played in the Q400 Sim in Downsview, Ontario when it was being certified (1998...yeah, I'm old) but never in-depth stuff.

Tailplane icing profile is final approach in icing, input landing flaps, and wooop!...upset happens. Tailplane stall recovery is opposite of a conventional wing stall recovery if memory serves me (it's tougher each year). T-Tail may be different then conventional stab. I dunno...

Roselawn was a holding in icing conditions event. Icing caused airflow blockage to the ailerons. The autopilot compensated until in couldn't. Captain took control of the airplane with loaded yoke pressure and couldn't recover from the hard over. The outworkings of that crash spawned all kinds of bulletins and SOP/POH revisions. The CVR was scary. They tried to hard fly out of it all the way to the ground.

I used to wait till I got an half inch of ice built up on the Dash to blow the boots....and for fun I'd do a segment at a time and watch the airspeed recover. When they said to turn it on and leave it on, alot of us old timers were afraid of ice bridging on the boots. But, deHavilland was right; they kept it relatively clean.

T8

 

[RiddleEagle18]

What's really disturbing to me is that I was supposed to fly a dash up to BUF late last night but got canceled because of the huge delays. EWR was showing 5 hour delays yesterday. Makes me wonder how long they were on duty yesterday. Fatigue will kill your awareness as we all know....

Godspeed

Dont worry fatigue will be overlooked yet again. At comair the NTSB spent nearly two days during the final hearings on less than 10 seconds of non pertinent conversation that took place and ruled that as a major contributing factor.

Forget the fact that both pilots were fatigued and the signage and jepp plates were wrong.

While not any condolance to the familys, I hope this crew is vindicated.

 

[Oakum_Boy]

Well, only disconnect every five minutes if you're doing a Cat IIIB in a 747 over the Pacific. The anchor actually had to interrupt his ridiculous monolouge and explain what he was getting at which was basically nothing. He was even reading from his notes probably from Wikipedia. John Wiley, BACA contributor and CNN resident moron.

 

[CrownandCoke]

as Cale mentioned, I fly these things in icing conditions every day. I highly doubt it was just ice that brought this bird down. I'm guessing fatigue is playing a part here. When you're owned by Pinnacle who has had an accident relating to fatigue already, I wouldn't be surprised.