Colgan 3047 NEW

[LearLove]

the cactus flight was a 190 from what i was told

 

[belchfire]

the cactus flight was a 190 from what i was told

Well...do you have a hot wing on the 190 if the flaps are out? Heck, I don't even know of those things have any LEDs!

 

[pilotyip]

Was I Lied to?

Once again, there are NO airplanes designed or approved to fly in severe icing. Severe ice is to be avoided at all costs, no matter what the airplane.

You mean my instructor might have lied to me, lets check with Avbug he shoud know if the L-188 and L-382 were authorized for flight in severe icing.

 

[Bruno82]

I saw on Fox News that another "Continental Connection" flight landed 27 minutes after 3407. Does anyone know if that was a Q400?

 

[FreightGod]

I really hope there turns out to be more to the story than just NOT advancing the power levers.

Does the Q-400 have auto-throttles, and if so, are they commonly used on approach?

 

[satpak77]

I saw on Fox News that another "Continental Connection" flight landed 27 minutes after 3407. Does anyone know if that was a Q400?

yes

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/16/buffalo.crash.ntsb/index.html

 

[N1VIBS]

God save us from the media. Some idiot on NBC News tonight reported the Captain only had about 100 hours on the Q400 and had been flying the Saab340 JET before flying the turboprop!!!

 

[contrail67]

God save us from the media. Some idiot on NBC News tonight reported the Captain only had about 100 hours on the Q400 and had been flying the Saab340 JET before flying the turboprop!!!

Uh..the guy got his type in the Q400 in Nov. of 2008. He probably did not have much more than 100 hours in it.

 

[bizicmo]

Are the details of the trip known? What day of the trip were they on? Length of overnights? Duty times for those days?

 

[satpak77]

Uh..the guy got his type in the Q400 in Nov. of 2008. He probably did not have much more than 100 hours in it.

I think too many unfortunate things lined up perfectly (or imperfectly?) that night, and resulted in a tragedy.

 

[N1VIBS]

Uh..the guy got his type in the Q400 in Nov. of 2008. He probably did not have much more than 100 hours in it.

Sorry, what I meant was this reporter calling the Saab340 a jet. The reporter seemed to emphasize that the Captain had been flying a jet before transitioning to a turboprop.

 

[Thurman Merman]

For the aircraft's weight with fuel and pax, considering icing conditions present, and that the reference speed increase switch was selected ON, was 134 kts an appropriate speed? Q400 pilots only.

I'm not a member of the media.

With 45 pax, landing fuel around 5500 pounds, and a guess of 45 bags the aircraft weight would have been around 55500-56000 pounds. The ref speed, flaps 15, about 121 kias.

 

[Thurman Merman]

Does the Q-400 have auto-throttles, and if so, are they commonly used on approach?

No, the Q400 is FADEC, however. If you shove the levers up in the detent you're getting NTOP(normal takeoff power). If you go past the detent you can get up to 125%, an extra 35% boost for a limited time.

 

[felixf16]

As for your "hot wing jets"...I don't know what types the AA and USAir flights were but when the flaps are extended on every piece of Boeing Equipment I'm familiar with it is no longer a hot wing. The leading edge flaps open up areas on the bottom of the wing and any bleed air would just rush out into the airstream.quote]

Belchfire,

The 727's leading edge slats and inboard leading edge flaps are heated (when wing A/I selected ON) through telescoping tubes regardless of position (extended or retracted), along with a portion of the fixed wing adjacent to the leading edge flaps. Heating the LEF's and wing prevents ingestion of ice by the aft-mounted engines.

The 737's leading edge slats (with the exception of the outboard slats on the 737 NG variants) are heated as well through the same type of telescoping tube mechanism regardless of position (extended or retracted). The leading edge flaps are unheated regardless of position.

When selected ON, the 757's wing heat provides hot air to three midwing slats on each wing regardless of slat position (extended or retracted).

Not sure about the 707 or 747 though.

Cheers,

Felix

 

[Buzo]

The 747 is not heated when the LED's are extended.

 

[Salukipilot4590]

If you go past the detent you can get up to 125%, an extra 35% boost for a limited time.

I'd honestly love to see what that feels like!

 

[LearLove]

Well...do you have a hot wing on the 190 if the flaps are out? Heck, I don't even know of those things have any LEDs!

yes it has LED's. I have never seen anything saying that you don't have heat on the 170/190 when the flaps are extended so I assume heat is available with flaps/slats. Also flaps and slats are electric not hyd like most aircraft.

FWIW the 170/190 has no anti-ice on the tail (vert or horz stab). Just wings, engine, windshield and probes (smart probes ect.)

 

[belchfire]

Okay, thanks...interesting, wonder about the DC-9/MD-80 variants.

 

[ReverseSensing]

With 45 pax, landing fuel around 5500 pounds, and a guess of 45 bags the aircraft weight would have been around 55500-56000 pounds. The ref speed, flaps 15, about 121 kias.

That either sounds like a non-ice (open bug) ref speed for flaps 15 or a ref ice speed (solid bug) for flaps 35. It does not sound right for flaps 15 solid bug.

BTW, your earlier post was excellent.

135 at flaps 5 (gear up or down) would be uncomfortably slow in the Q400 in any conditions, let along icing.

Vfe flaps 5 and Vlo 200 kias
Vfe flaps 10 181 kias
Vfe flaps 15 172 kias
Vfe flaps 35 158 kias

A technique some Q400 pilots advocate is to use the next lowest speed for each configuration change, so flaps 5 and gear down around 180, flaps 15 around 160, and flaps 35 around ref ice (solid bug).

 

[Donsa320]

Okay, thanks...interesting, wonder about the DC-9/MD-80 variants.

DC-9's anti-ice the wings but the horizantal tailplane may have one of several options. Some aircraft have a manual tail deice button which takes the heat away from the wings and puts it on the tail only on demand. SOP was to actuate it every 15 minutes in icing and again before final approach. Others automatically switched to the tail for a time when the deice was turned Off. Still others always activated the tail at predetermined intervals. Different airline customers ordered what they wanted and Douglas would provide it.

 

[cooler07]

I haven’t posted here for sometime, but normally try to catch the cross talk a couple of times a week, and reading over the many, many, many, post covering this tragic invent.
( My condolences to families)

Now without trying to sound like speculation and correct me if I’m wrong. But know one has commented on the possibility of a mechanical failure of some kind. Maybe in the control or deice systems.

I haven’t flown any Dash 8 series aircraft and wouldn’t know of any fault indicators for the deice system. That’s for someone driving them.

But from personal experience I’ve had anti-ice AOA and wing heat failures along with wing and tail deice boots failures. Without any cockpit indications pertaining to the fault in some of the jets and turboprops I’ve operated in icing conditions.

I mean really just because you activate a deice system can you SEE the tail?

 

[AV1ATRX]

FWIW the 170/190 has no anti-ice on the tail (vert or horz stab). Just wings, engine, windshield and probes (smart probes ect.)

I once landed in ORD in a E-170 after flying briefly through "moderate" icing between 6000-4000 feet on the arrival. When the rampers parked us they asked us to come down and see the airplane.

It was COVERD in ice. The WHOLE airplane. And on all the leading edges of the tail were those scary-looking "fingers" of ice, protruding about 2 in. out. It was quite possibly the scariest ice I've ever seen. It sure didn't give me a warm and fuzzy feeling about not having heat back there on the tail.

Obviously someone reported it as moderate, but nobody else ever contradicted the report. Since at the time all we could see were the windshield wipers and they didn't have ice like everywhere else, we didn't either. It was quite the eye-opening experience about how ice can be decieving and hard to report accurately.

 

[AceCrackshot]

I'd honestly love to see what that feels like!

Its a kick in the Ass...I flew out of a "unrecoverable" WS on T/O in the sim...and got a ass-chewing by the Sim Instructor.

 

[Singlecoil]

Does the Q400 have an aural warning when the autopilot disconnects or just a red light?
I know the -100 and -200 models did not have an aural warning like every other aircraft I've flown has.
When they got stick shaker and the autopilot kicked off, was the PF fully aware that he was hand flying?

 

[WSurf]

Well atleast Colgan joined ALPA. ALPA sent Piedmont's Safety team to help in the crash investiagtion. Atleast this crew now has some legal representation.

If ALPA hadn't been voted in, do you think anyone would have been there to defend this crews action and help on there side of the investiation?

 

[Thurman Merman]

That either sounds like a non-ice (open bug) ref speed for flaps 15 or a ref ice speed (solid bug) for flaps 35. It does not sound right for flaps 15 solid bug.

BTW, your earlier post was excellent."

Thank you, and sorry for leaving out you West Coast and Midwest turboprop carriers, ya'll fly through some hell as well.

As for the bugged ref, 121 would be a flap 15, no ice increment. I haven't heard if the +20 ice increment was used.

Yes, the 400 has an aural warning