Colgan 3047 NEW

[j-3]

Good information on Tailplane Stall.
“Think Ice 2000” : see Tail Ice / Tailplane Stall.

 

[glasspilot1]

>> Guys who have gone to fly jets after props will tell you their skills were never better than when flying the props. <<

Thurman, I agree. When I was at Comair I flew the "Bandit" and the Metroliner; no autopilot, and my flying skills were never better.

 

[DoinTime]

Interesting information on some of the flight testing of the Q400, including stall speeds.

http://cf.alpa.org/internet/alp/1999/mayQ400.htm

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

I flew at Colgan for 5 years, the Q400 for my final year there. First off with the flaps, landing flaps are selected 15 or 35. A no flap landing is actually a non-normal procedure in the Quick Refernece Handbook. With a 0 flap landing, you must fly the approach and touchdown no less than 150 kias. The 400 is quite a bit longer than the previous 3 models. The reason for the flaps is the deck angle of the nose. With a 0 flap landing your touching down around 5-6 degrees nose up, you tail strike at 7 degrees. Also the Q400 has 5071 SHP per side(someone mentioned 2000).

Second, as for Icing, when in Icing conditions, there is a ice detect message that appears on the engine display. It blinks yellow until the increase ref speed switch is flipped on. This raises the floor on your airspeed so the landing bugs must be reset. In Icing, ref speed increase on, your bumping your bugged speed up 20 kias.

These are operational facts, I'm not going to theorize on the cause. I lost friends, the fo and I were based together and flew a lot with eachother. She was the copilot for my last flight at Colgan. The one thing I will say is that she was a hell of a pilot, good stick and rudder skills. It bothers me how they talk about lack of experience. She was one of our higher time FO's getting hired on to the Q400(1500+). And if I hear another media outlet hypothosize, "what if sully was on board," I'll throw my shoe through the TV.

And on the subject of experience, they want more, pay us what we're worth. I, and anybody who has flown in the North East corrider in thunderstorm or winter season definitly earn their pay and a whole lot more. In my opinion the company is getting a bargain for how much they pay crews. I am not taking anything away from Sully, but you want to see damned good pilots, sit on the jumpseat with some, Colgan, Commute Air, or Peidmont crews flying 4-6 legs a day in the junk with the mighty turboprops and you'll see some of the best, natural stick and rudder guys out there. Guys who have gone to fly jets after props will tell you their skills were never better than when flying the props.

I can already sense what direction this investigation is going. You bet the Company and Bombardier are championing whichever eliviates them of any responsibility. Always remember, "fate is the hunter."

Thurman:

Please accept my heartfelt condolences on the loss of your former coworkers. Indeed, I think I can go out on a limb here and say that every pilot at Piedmont is feeling the sting of this tragedy and will do anything possible to help and provide comfort to the pilots at Colgan (both current and former!).

One very small comfort is that, for all of the theorizing and speculating, something of no small importance has already been born from this horrible event. Every pilot I have talked to has gone back to the books and read up on icing and winter operations. The "hanger flying" being done here is not at all without value and may just save someones life one of these days.

Again, please know that all of us at Piedmont are keeping Colganites everywhere in our thoughts and prayers.

 

[Papa Woody]

The 737 was the most popular airliner in the world and was in service for 30 years before it was discovered it had a fatal problem (rudder jamming).

Exactly.

Boxcutters had been around for 60 years before 9/11.

Lots of unrecognized dangers lurk and close-calls are common.

 

[bigboeings]

And on the subject of experience, they want more, pay us what we're worth. I, and anybody who has flown in the North East corrider in thunderstorm or winter season definitly earn their pay and a whole lot more. In my opinion the company is getting a bargain for how much they pay crews. I am not taking anything away from Sully, but you want to see damned good pilots, sit on the jumpseat with some, Colgan, Commute Air, or Peidmont crews flying 4-6 legs a day in the junk with the mighty turboprops and you'll see some of the best, natural stick and rudder guys out there. Guys who have gone to fly jets after props will tell you their skills were never better than when flying the props.

I can already sense what direction this investigation is going. You bet the Company and Bombardier are championing whichever eliviates them of any responsibility. Always remember, "fate is the hunter."

Amen to this!! As an ex Colganite myself I can attest to this.

 

[Crossky]

http://www.flightglobal.com/article...-3407-pitched-up-despite-anti-stall-push.html
NTSB: Colgan 3407 pitched up despite anti-stall push
By John Croft
"Flight data recorder information shows the Colgan Air Q400 that crashed in Buffalo Thursday night pitched 31 degrees nose-up after stick shaker and stick pusher systems activated at the start of the instrument approach.

The events occurred as the crew began configuring the twin-engine turboprop for landing in light to moderate icing and snow conditions.

According to National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) member Steven Chealander, data shows that the stick shaker and stick pusher activated roughly 34 seconds after the landing gear was deployed and as the wing flaps transitioned between 5 and 10 degrees down. The pilots had commanded the flaps to the 15 degree down position.

A “reference speed increase” switch that increases by 20kt the speed at which the stall warning system activates had been set to the ON position by the pilots as called for in icing conditions, says Chealander. The crew turned on the aircraft’s automatic de-icing system shortly after departure from Newark. Flight 3407, flying as Continental Connection, crashed into a house about 5mi from the airport, killing all 49 on board and one person in the house.

Chealander says aircraft had been flying in autopilot mode until the stick shaker activated, an action that automatically disengaged the system. The stick pusher follows the stick shaker if the aircraft continues to approach an aerodynamic stall, driving the control column forward to decrease the angle-of-attach and wing loading. The stick pusher is designed so that pilots can overpower it however.

While the NTSB has recommended that pilots hand flying their aircraft in icing conditions to get a better sense for trim changes, Chealander says the US Federal Aviation Administration has not mandated the practice, in part due considerations over pilot workload in such conditions without the use of autopilot.

Further, he says that Bombardier, the manufacturer of the Q400, recommends hand flying only if icing conditions are severe. “From what we’ve seen so far, we haven’t determined there was severe icing,” he says.

Investigators are still in the process of determining what the aircraft’s stall speed would have been for its weight and configuration, says Chealander. Flight data recorder (FDR) information shows the aircraft was flying at a calibrated airspeed of 134kt just before the landing gear was deployed.

Following the initial pitch upset to 31 degrees nose up, Chealander says the aircraft experienced a nose-down pitch of 45 degrees with a roll to the left of 46 degrees. The Q400 then rolled right to 105 degrees. Engine power was increased to full-power about 6 seconds after the upset. The pilots had commanded the flaps and landing gear to retract after the upset.
The last data point from the FDR, captured when the aircraft was approximately 250ft above the ground, showed a heading of 53 degrees (magnetic), a 26-degree right roll, 30 degree nose-down attitude and a speed of 100kt, says Chealander.

Radar data from air traffic control showed a descent rate of 9,600fpm between approximately 1,150ft and 350ft above the ground.

Chealander says the G-forces during the final minute of the flight ranged from 0.75G to 2G."

Stalling speed decreases with an increase in flap setting, but the wing angle of attack increases. The facts indicate that the wing stalled.

For the aircraft's weight with fuel and pax, considering icing conditions present, and that the reference speed increase switch was selected ON, was 134 kts an appropriate speed? Q400 pilots only.

I'm not a member of the media.

 

[Raskal]

...Investigators are still in the process of determining what the aircraft’s stall speed would have been for its weight and configuration, says Chealander. Flight data recorder (FDR) information shows the aircraft was flying at a calibrated airspeed of 134kt just before the landing gear was deployed...

Stalling speed decreases with an increase in flap setting, but the wing angle of attack increases. The facts indicate that the wing stalled.

For the aircraft's weight with fuel and pax, considering icing conditions present, and that the reference speed increase switch was selected ON, was 134 kts an appropriate speed? Q400 pilots only.

I'm not a member of the media.

Also not having flown any of the dash series that sentence struck me as well-134 at gear down? I fly a slower saab now and that would be an unusually low speed even for us.

 

[satpak77]

my lowly 8 pax turboprop, the King Air 350, gear down at the market/GS intercept usually occurs typically at 150 KTS mas or menos

We fly 140 KTS until about 2 mile final, inside 2 mile is 130-120-110 with Vref (105 at max gross) ideally occuring over the fence or near the fence (!)

if the FDR indicates 134 KIAS BEFORE gear extension, I wonder what the speed settled down to when gear extended fully, if it even did

 

[belchfire]

Not true. Delta 1988 said they had 1/4" on their windscreen, which we all know means much more ice would be building on the tail and wings if this were a plane with boots instead of heated leading edges. Also, Cactus 1442? repeatedly mentioned that they were picking up moderate rime ice and needed to get out of it. These were hot wing jets.

I know no such thing! I've seen ice forming on the wings and not on the wipers/windshield edges, ice forming on the wipers/windshield edges without accumulating on the wings and all kinds of variations. Icing is strange stuff and the only thing that be said for certain about it is that it can be very hazardous.

As for your "hot wing jets"...I don't know what types the AA and USAir flights were but when the flaps are extended on every piece of Boeing Equipment I'm familiar with it is no longer a hot wing. The leading edge flaps open up areas on the bottom of the wing and any bleed air would just rush out into the airstream. If the Cactus flight was a 737 with the wing dirty you can bet your arse they wanted out of those conditions!

 

[LearLove]

the cactus flight was a 190 from what i was told

 

[belchfire]

the cactus flight was a 190 from what i was told

Well...do you have a hot wing on the 190 if the flaps are out? Heck, I don't even know of those things have any LEDs!

 

[pilotyip]

Was I Lied to?

Once again, there are NO airplanes designed or approved to fly in severe icing. Severe ice is to be avoided at all costs, no matter what the airplane.

You mean my instructor might have lied to me, lets check with Avbug he shoud know if the L-188 and L-382 were authorized for flight in severe icing.

 

[Bruno82]

I saw on Fox News that another "Continental Connection" flight landed 27 minutes after 3407. Does anyone know if that was a Q400?

 

[FreightGod]

I really hope there turns out to be more to the story than just NOT advancing the power levers.

Does the Q-400 have auto-throttles, and if so, are they commonly used on approach?

 

[satpak77]

I saw on Fox News that another "Continental Connection" flight landed 27 minutes after 3407. Does anyone know if that was a Q400?

yes

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/16/buffalo.crash.ntsb/index.html

 

[N1VIBS]

God save us from the media. Some idiot on NBC News tonight reported the Captain only had about 100 hours on the Q400 and had been flying the Saab340 JET before flying the turboprop!!!

 

[contrail67]

God save us from the media. Some idiot on NBC News tonight reported the Captain only had about 100 hours on the Q400 and had been flying the Saab340 JET before flying the turboprop!!!

Uh..the guy got his type in the Q400 in Nov. of 2008. He probably did not have much more than 100 hours in it.

 

[bizicmo]

Are the details of the trip known? What day of the trip were they on? Length of overnights? Duty times for those days?

 

[satpak77]

Uh..the guy got his type in the Q400 in Nov. of 2008. He probably did not have much more than 100 hours in it.

I think too many unfortunate things lined up perfectly (or imperfectly?) that night, and resulted in a tragedy.