Colgan 3047 NEW

[patq1]

You don't have any facts, you just have wild speculation.

Actually you are wrong; I am speculating(not too wildly) based on the following facts as presented by the NTSB in their briefings. The gear was selected down and 20 seconds later the flaps were selected to 15. When they reached 10 the autopilot disconnected, the shaker, then the pusher activated. Then the pitch and roll gyrations began. The aircraft lost 800 feet in 5 seconds(9600 fpm) and had an airspeed of 100 knots. They did not say what the speed and power setting was before the gear was selected down.

Now here is my wild and crazy speculation based on the fact that the stick shaker and pusher activated:

The aircraft stalled.

 

[patq1]

Please tell us how lowering the flaps causes a stall. Funny, I thought flaps reduced stall speed.

If you lower the flaps and have an insufficient power setting, the airplane will slow and stall. In case you have forgotten, the flaps also increase drag. If the airplane is already slowing, the rate of deceleration will increase.

 

[PCL_128]

Damn, you're an ass. Three pilots, two flight attendants, all of their passengers, and a person on the ground are all dead. Show some fu--ing respect and let the investigators do their job before you drag the names of the crew through the mud some more.

 

[Avi8tor2000]

Actually you are wrong; I am speculating(not too wildly) based on the following facts as presented by the NTSB in their briefings. The gear was selected down and 20 seconds later the flaps were selected to 15. When they reached 10 the autopilot disconnected, the shaker, then the pusher activated. Then the pitch and roll gyrations began. The aircraft lost 800 feet in 5 seconds(9600 fpm) and had an airspeed of 100 knots. They did not say what the speed and power setting was before the gear was selected down.

Now here is my wild and crazy speculation based on the fact that the stick shaker and pusher activated:

The aircraft stalled.

http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/02/15/buffalo.plane.crash/index.html

"Offering more details, Chealander said Sunday that the plane's nose pitched up 31 degrees, then down 45 degrees. The aircraft rolled left 46 degrees then right 105 degrees, or past the 90-degree vertical point, he said."


While I agree the aircraft stalled, planes turning onto final simply just don't pitch up 31 degrees though. I'd be willing to bet most people who fly 121 ops have never seen 31 degrees pitch up on their airplanes. Something else happened other than just getting slow.

 

[patq1]

Damn, you're an ass. Three pilots, two flight attendants, all of their passengers, and a person on the ground are all dead. Show some fu--ing respect and let the investigators do their job before you drag the names of the crew through the mud some more.

You better hurry up and tell the people posting in the other 2 threads the same thing.

 

[LearLove]

WRT icing and the autopilot. It seems as though the media (and info from the FAA press conf.) are saying that the AP needs to be off ALL the time while in icing. From what I remember the PH for the Dash I had said to "periodically" disengage the AP to check for control masking due to icing.

Also (and I think T8 may have said this in another tread) there was a note in the Dash 8 manual that said to land flaps zero or 5 in heavy icing of freezing rain. I'd ref. the exact procedure but my Dash stuff is stored at my parents house back in PA.

can any current dash guys back this up?

 

[dmspilot00]

If you lower the flaps and have an insufficient power setting, the airplane will slow and stall. In case you have forgotten, the flaps also increase drag. If the airplane is already slowing, the rate of deceleration will increase.

I haven't forgotten, but the accident sequence happened so fast it doesn't seem like the aircraft would have had time to slow down...I would think the increase in lift and decrease in stall speed would have offset the increase in drag. I don't know what the cause was but you act like you know the cause beyond any doubt: simple wing stall, case closed. I think that is absurd and disrespectful to the crew and to the real investigators.

By the way the people in the other 2 threads haven't claimed to know the cause like you have, but have only given possible hypothetical scenarios and prefaced them as such.

 

[Alert height]

NOT backed up.

Colgan Q400 CFM only prohibits autopilot when in severe icing.

Colgan Q400 CFM makes no mention of occasional A/P disengagements.

No recommendation for flaps 0 or 5 when anding in icing conditions in Colgan CFM

Colgan CFM = Colgan Air Q400 Company Flight Manual, Rev1, 5/20/08

FAA Approved by Douglas Lundgren (POI)

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

Also (and I think T8 may have said this in another tread) there was a note in the Dash 8 manual that said to land flaps zero or 5 in heavy icing of freezing rain. I'd ref. the exact procedure but my Dash stuff is stored at my parents house back in PA.

can any current dash guys back this up?

Negative. No such recommendation that I am aware of unless it is really, really small print.

 

[belchfire]

Negative. No such recommendation that I am aware of unless it is really, really small print.

Mind you some of that really small print varies from outfit to outfit...

I am surprised no one I have read yet has listed airframe icing additives to the various flap position ref speeds.