CNBC reports US Air / United in merger talks

[MCDU]

The answer is this: There isn't one damned thing that is "fair" about this profession. Who gets hired and where, who's company goes T/U, who gets bought, who gets furloughed, who's executives dump your retirement. This profession is one giant SUCK and pilots, as a group are greedy and stupid (and I know I am in that group).

I like that post. That is why we are our own worst enemy. Well said.

M

 

[TWA Dude]

Actually my opinion is the opposite of yours, relative seniority only works at two similar carriers.

Define what you mean by "works".

I and my fellow pilots had nothing to do with the east weat mud slinging but could be potentially fall victim to a list that has younger pilots at the top of the list.

What does a pilot's age have to do with anything? I've flown with plenty of captains younger than me.

From the view of the "third party" the nic sucks.

Your opinion, like mine, is irrelevant.

Any pilot coming into a merger wants the olfderpilots on top and the younger ones on the bottom.

Who cares what a pilot "wants"? We all deserve to be A380 captains but that ain't gonna happen. That's why it goes to a neutral to decide.

As for WHO is bringing anomosity, does it mattter? A disfunctional pilot group is a disfunctional pilot group regardless of where it is coming from.

Of course it matters. Making everybody equally unhappy is not the criterion by which judges and arbitrators operate.

I have no idea what your DOH at AWA is but I do know you are senior to a lot of USAir pilots that were there long before you were at AWA, in fact before you were even at TWA.

So? If I'd been hired by Air Tran the same month I was hired by AWA I'd be a captain instead of barely holding on to my job. Sucks to be me but that's how it goes.

 

[Tejas-Jet]

I think Date of Hire is the best way to go.

 

[TWA Dude]

Twa dude
could you possibly explain to me how you think it is fair that 2 guys both hired June of 1986 one at us airways one at america west.
On the Nic award the west guy is 1500 numbers senior to the east guy. 1500 numbers.

Yes, I'm happy to explain. ALPA Merger Policy:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

What is wrong with DOH with fences and seat protection.

What's wrong is that in the case of AWA/USair a DOH integration puts a pilot who was on furlough with no hope of recall at the time of the merger senior to 2/3 of the AWA list. And fences don't protect from furlough. For a more complete explanation please read the Nicolau Award.

 

[SuperFLUF]

The answer is this: There isn't one damned thing that is "fair" about this profession. Who gets hired and where, who's company goes T/U, who gets bought, who gets furloughed, who's executives dump your retirement. This profession is one giant SUCK and pilots, as a group are greedy and stupid (and I know I am in that group).

The truth. AND it applies to this world we live in as well.

Life isn't fair, this world is one giant suck and people are greedy and stupid.

 

[beagle pilot]

Not part of the LCC soap opera or at UAL, just an impartial observer. If this merger happens, welcome back to ALPA, and get use to the Nicolau, because its the list that would be used in constructing an integrated seniority list with the UAL pilots.

LOL. Agreed about back to ALPA. BTW, I think, merger or not, it's only a matter of time before USAPA implodes and collapses in a heap of stinking, burning rubble resulting in a mass vote to return to ALPA.

Re Nicolau; his health is deteriorating. We had a scare just a few weeks ago that he'd collapsed and was in intensive care midway through a ruling between Eagle, APA and AMR. He pulled through and issued the ruling, but I fear his years are numbered in single digits.

 

[beagle pilot]

I think Date of Hire is the best way to go.

Normally, I'd agree with you, but when the seniority in question is so different that it puts almost one entire group on top of the other, then another method must be found out of fairness. Add that problem is that the senior group is actually the pilots of the acquired and failing airline, not the acquiring airline/pilot group.

What's wrong is that in the case of AWA/USair a DOH integration puts a pilot who was on furlough with no hope of recall at the time of the merger senior to 2/3 of the AWA list. And fences don't protect from furlough. For a more complete explanation please read the Nicolau Award.

Agreed 100%.

 

[Metro752]

What are you guys going to do about those Aer Lingus A330s at IAD?

 

[Yuppyguppy]

This is such a goat rope...I remember back in 2000 USAIR F100 guys were telling me in my 737-200 that they couldnt wait to get their hands on the 747-400s. Now we got Aer Lingus, Tilton, East vs West, RJ cancer, merger or buyout and no contract. Time to get out my popcorn this is gonna be a long horror movie.

 

[another cfii]

This is such a goat rope...I remember back in 2000 USAIR F100 guys were telling me in my 737-200 that they couldnt wait to get their hands on the 747-400s. Now we got Aer Lingus, Tilton, East vs West, RJ cancer, merger or buyout and no contract. Time to get out my popcorn this is gonna be a long horror movie.

More like a 2 hour colonscopy exam... Just think close your eyes and think of a happy place.

 

[flybywire]

Yes, I'm happy to explain. ALPA Merger Policy:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

What's wrong is that in the case of AWA/USair a DOH integration puts a pilot who was on furlough with no hope of recall at the time of the merger senior to 2/3 of the AWA list. And fences don't protect from furlough. For a more complete explanation please read the Nicolau Award.

Wow alpa merger policy is great and works well. I can't see where ABCDor E applies to the merger.

 

[FDJ2]

Twa dude
could you possibly explain to me how you think it is fair that 2 guys both hired June of 1986 one at us airways one at america west.
On the Nic award the west guy is 1500 numbers senior to the east guy. 1500 numbers. What is wrong with DOH with fences and seat protection.

That's easy, while they both share the same longevity at their respective carriers, they don't share the same seniority. The AWA pilot was significantly more senior. When they merged list, both pilots retained their seniority for bidding and longevity for benefits.

 

[MCDU]

Look up the word seniority. Seniority has everything to due with how long you worked. There is a reason why every other employee groups merge DOH. Pilots even offer protections and fences. That way no one loses their seat.


M

 

[eaglesview]

Yes, I'm happy to explain. ALPA Merger Policy:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

What's wrong is that in the case of AWA/USair a DOH integration puts a pilot who was on furlough with no hope of recall at the time of the merger senior to 2/3 of the AWA list. And fences don't protect from furlough. For a more complete explanation please read the Nicolau Award.

TWA, you keep referring to the old ALPA merger. It has been changed to include longevity. In my personal opinion they did this asa a direct result of the nic. Not because they favor one group over the other but because it cost them 10 Million in dues money. ALPA is a business like any other, the bottom line dictates policy.


OLD
1.The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a.Preserve jobs.
b.Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c.Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d.Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e.Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.
　
NEW
e. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable integrated seniority list is reached. Factors to be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, shall include but not be limited to the following:
- Career expectations.
- Longevity.
- Status and category.

 

[reepicheep]

Look up the word seniority. Seniority has everything to due with how long you worked. There is a reason why every other employee groups merge DOH. Pilots even offer protections and fences. That way no one loses their seat.


M

You are dead wrong and you and everyone knows it. Seniority equates to longevity only within one list. The minute you try and merge two lists it goes out the window. Easy example is the #1 guy at Virgin America with 3 years' longevity is more senior than the #2 at US Airways hired in the late 70's. And if this goes down I can't wait to see how many late 80's-early 90's hired United captains think DOH is so neat that they are gonna be willing to give up their place on the list for the oft-furloughed 20-year narrowbody rightseater Angry FO Club members.