CNBC reports US Air / United in merger talks

[flybywire]

Yes, I'm happy to explain. ALPA Merger Policy:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

What's wrong is that in the case of AWA/USair a DOH integration puts a pilot who was on furlough with no hope of recall at the time of the merger senior to 2/3 of the AWA list. And fences don't protect from furlough. For a more complete explanation please read the Nicolau Award.

Wow alpa merger policy is great and works well. I can't see where ABCDor E applies to the merger.

 

[FDJ2]

Twa dude
could you possibly explain to me how you think it is fair that 2 guys both hired June of 1986 one at us airways one at america west.
On the Nic award the west guy is 1500 numbers senior to the east guy. 1500 numbers. What is wrong with DOH with fences and seat protection.

That's easy, while they both share the same longevity at their respective carriers, they don't share the same seniority. The AWA pilot was significantly more senior. When they merged list, both pilots retained their seniority for bidding and longevity for benefits.

 

[MCDU]

Look up the word seniority. Seniority has everything to due with how long you worked. There is a reason why every other employee groups merge DOH. Pilots even offer protections and fences. That way no one loses their seat.


M

 

[eaglesview]

Yes, I'm happy to explain. ALPA Merger Policy:

a. Preserve jobs.
b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c. Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d. Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.

What's wrong is that in the case of AWA/USair a DOH integration puts a pilot who was on furlough with no hope of recall at the time of the merger senior to 2/3 of the AWA list. And fences don't protect from furlough. For a more complete explanation please read the Nicolau Award.

TWA, you keep referring to the old ALPA merger. It has been changed to include longevity. In my personal opinion they did this asa a direct result of the nic. Not because they favor one group over the other but because it cost them 10 Million in dues money. ALPA is a business like any other, the bottom line dictates policy.


OLD
1.The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a.Preserve jobs.
b.Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c.Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d.Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e.Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.
　
NEW
e. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable integrated seniority list is reached. Factors to be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, shall include but not be limited to the following:
- Career expectations.
- Longevity.
- Status and category.

 

[reepicheep]

Look up the word seniority. Seniority has everything to due with how long you worked. There is a reason why every other employee groups merge DOH. Pilots even offer protections and fences. That way no one loses their seat.


M

You are dead wrong and you and everyone knows it. Seniority equates to longevity only within one list. The minute you try and merge two lists it goes out the window. Easy example is the #1 guy at Virgin America with 3 years' longevity is more senior than the #2 at US Airways hired in the late 70's. And if this goes down I can't wait to see how many late 80's-early 90's hired United captains think DOH is so neat that they are gonna be willing to give up their place on the list for the oft-furloughed 20-year narrowbody rightseater Angry FO Club members.

 

[hockeypilot44]

DOH is the worst way to merge. What if you have a newer company that's doing well and a large old company that is struggling to stay alive. DO you think it makes any sense to use DOH, now guys who are senior captains are now reserve FO's. Relative seniority is the only way to cause the least amount of damage.

DOH is the best way to merge a list. We have zero control over whether or not our company will be successful. ALPA should have created a national seniority list using DOH years ago. The newer companies usually do well because of the tax breaks, reduced landing fees, and lower labor costs. Someone's going to get screwed either way. I am extremely junior on a major airline list (not hard to find out who I work for). I still stand by DOH. All airlines eventually become large older companies struggling to stay alive. Southwest is the only exception up to this point, but I don't think long term, they will even be an exception. By not going with DOH, you are allowing pilots to jump ahead long term at other pilots' expense. US Airways hired the best of the best in th 80's. If these pilots had a crystal ball at the time, I am sure none of them would have gone to USAir. Southwest hired the rejects of the industry in the 80's all the way up to the late 90's. Things change. DOH with no bump and flush is the only true fair way to do it. Everyone keeps their current position, but then advances where DOH would put them.

 

[eaglesview]

You are dead wrong and you and everyone knows it. Seniority equates to longevity only within one list. The minute you try and merge two lists it goes out the window. Easy example is the #1 guy at Virgin America with 3 years' longevity is more senior than the #2 at US Airways hired in the late 70's. And if this goes down I can't wait to see how many late 80's-early 90's hired United captains think DOH is so neat that they are gonna be willing to give up their place on the list for the oft-furloughed 20-year narrowbody rightseater Angry FO Club members.

IMHO this is exactly where AWA was a bit short sighted. I am the exact UAL pilot you describe, early 90's hire Captain seniority. All it takes is a bit of forward thinking. USAir is so senior (read OLD) that their pilot group will be retiring at a very quick pace beginning in December of 2012. A relativley short fence to protect our current seat/flying and the "problem is solved." The problem with this merger does not come from the East, it comes from the west. There you have younger pilots with less longevity who want their flying protected and more!

So to sum it up DOH puts us behind really old pilots in the East and we fair well with the pilots of the West.

 

[hockeypilot44]

IMHO this is exactly where AWA was a bit short sighted. I am the exact UAL pilot you describe, early 90's hire Captain seniority. All it takes is a bit of forward thinking. USAir is so senior (read OLD) that their pilot group will be retiring at a very quick pace beginning in December of 2012. A relativley short fence to protect our current seat/flying and the "problem is solved." The problem with this merger does not come from the East, it comes from the west. There you have younger pilots with less longevity who want their flying protected and more!

So to sum it up DOH puts us behind really old pilots in the East and we fair well with the pilots of the West.

I agree with you. The NIC award made it worse. It was supposed to be a binding award therefore giving the AWA pilots in their minds, legal entitlement.

 

[hockeypilot44]

You are dead wrong and you and everyone knows it. Seniority equates to longevity only within one list. The minute you try and merge two lists it goes out the window. Easy example is the #1 guy at Virgin America with 3 years' longevity is more senior than the #2 at US Airways hired in the late 70's. And if this goes down I can't wait to see how many late 80's-early 90's hired United captains think DOH is so neat that they are gonna be willing to give up their place on the list for the oft-furloughed 20-year narrowbody rightseater Angry FO Club members.

The number 1 guy at Virgin should go where his DOH would put him. If DOH was law, pilots would think long and hard about taking a bottom-feeding job just to be high on the seniority list. When Jetblue started, they paid about half what the legacies paid. I put them into this category also. The guys at the top are there because of luck. I have met numerous pilots in the top 100 there that were turned down by airlines like US Airways, Northwest, Delta, and United. They are extremely grateful, but truth be told, they were rewarded for failing at interviews.

 

[MCDU]

Good posts. It is nice to see pilots who see the big picture.

M

 

[ToThePain]

TWA, you keep referring to the old ALPA merger. It has been changed to include longevity. In my personal opinion they did this asa a direct result of the nic. Not because they favor one group over the other but because it cost them 10 Million in dues money. ALPA is a business like any other, the bottom line dictates policy.


OLD
1.The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:
a.Preserve jobs.
b.Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.
c.Maintain or improve pre-merger pay and standard of living.
d.Maintain or improve pre-merger pilot status.
e.Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.
　
NEW
e. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable integrated seniority list is reached. Factors to be considered in constructing a fair and equitable integrated seniority list, in no particular order and with no particular weight, shall include but not be limited to the following:
- Career expectations.
- Longevity.
- Status and category.

With all due respect I think you missed the intent of "longevity" when it was added as a consideration. Longetivity is not intended to be DOH but length of actual service at your respective airline. For instance, if you were hired at UAL in 1999, furloughed in 2001, recalled in 2007 and furloughed again in 2010, your "longetivity" or length of service would be 5 years, not 11 years that DOH would have given you. It is also only one consideration. The fact that your respective airline might be going out of business would also be a consideration. The fact that you are a few numbers from holding Captain at your respective airline (career expectations) might also be a factor. No one factor is designated as more important than another.

 

[eaglesview]

With all due respect I think you missed the intent of "longevity" when it was added as a consideration. Longetivity is not intended to be DOH but length of actual service at your respective airline. For instance, if you were hired at UAL in 1999, furloughed in 2001, recalled in 2007 and furloughed again in 2010, your "longetivity" or length of service would be 5 years, not 11 years that DOH would have given you. It is also only one consideration. The fact that your respective airline might be going out of business would also be a consideration. The fact that you are a few numbers from holding Captain at your respective airline (career expectations) might also be a factor. No one factor is designated as more important than another.

I understand longevity..DOH minus time away from the airline, usually due to furlough. I am perfectly ok with a system that uses longevity.

Career expectations are a joke. In the 80's USAir was the place to be, In the 90's when I got hired at UAL I was set for life, now we got Tilton. AWA pilots who are captains now still have the reality of Doug at the helm. Nobody knows how there career would have been without said merger. That is one reason longevity makes so much more sence.

 

[ToThePain]

I understand longevity..DOH minus time away from the airline, usually due to furlough. I am perfectly ok with a system that uses longevity.

Career expectations are a joke. In the 80's USAir was the place to be, In the 90's when I got hired at UAL I was set for life, now we got Tilton. AWA pilots who are captains now still have the reality of Doug at the helm. Nobody knows how there career would have been without said merger. That is one reason longevity makes so much more sence.

Career expectations are difficult to guage. For instance, I have 2 friends (hired late 2004) that were B737 captains at CAL before the 12% cut in domestic capacity. They are looking to be back in that position (with retirements alone) in the next year and a half. A merger with UAL would set that time period back several years. Near term projections on career expectations are easier to forecast, the longer term ones that are multiple years (more than 5 years) are a little more difficult to track.

 

[scoreboardII]

Southwest hired the rejects of the industry in the 80's all the way up to the late 90's.

You got that right, lucky they made it this far....

Another blast from the past clown act:

01-03-2007, 14:37 #15 YourPilotFriend
YourPilotFriend



Posts: 1,569
Civ/Mil: Civ
A/C Flown: J3 Cub
Ratings: PhD of airplanes
Total Time: 1.5


It has nothing to do with the employees, I think they are great people and are very lucky. The problem is the companies approach to business is absolute cost minimalism...Do not confuse this with profit maximization. In other words SWA analyzes routes for maximum capacity increase on a slim margin. It may be the best in terms of airlines but that's because of such controlled costs. This is called the Southwest effect. If an airline is charging 20 cents a mile, SWA will go into an area and charge 12 cents a mile.

The problem with this approach is that the model assumes exponential growth if you do not raise fares. Simply put SWA will have to raise fares considerably to remain profitable as other airlines match SW prices. This is why SWA load factors have remained consistent over the years. If SW is allowed to grow untamed this is a good thing for pilots, as they pay the best salaries now. However, such growth is physically impossible, which is why, I have said SW will be bankrupt by 2009 if it continues on its current course. They would need over 1000 737's by 2009 to avoid it. They could raise fares and risk the capacity drop if other airlines do not match. Fuel going up in price would also help SW.
__________________
"If you want to fall behind on your peers, aviation is the job for you!"

Sorry YPF, SWA is still cooking...

 

[eaglesview]

Career expectations are difficult to guage. For instance, I have 2 friends (hired late 2004) that were B737 captains at CAL before the 12% cut in domestic capacity. They are looking to be back in that position (with retirements alone) in the next year and a half. A merger with UAL would set that time period back several years. Near term projections on career expectations are easier to forecast, the longer term ones that are multiple years (more than 5 years) are a little more difficult to track.

You are EXACTLY correct. That is why career expectations is a complete farse. (spelling?) Anything that is subjective is not the way to figure out a SLI.

 

[ToThePain]

You are EXACTLY correct. That is why career expectations is a complete farse. (spelling?) Anything that is subjective is not the way to figure out a SLI.

I would say that my friends that are at the cusp of sitting Captain would say that their career expectations are NOT arbitrary but very easy to see and account for. That is why career expectations ares only a factor. Say, for example that CAL and UAL merge, UAL is about to go into another bankeruptcy while CAL is not, should career expectations not be considered. Should someone furloughed from a company (UAL) that has no recall in sight now benefit from a merger an placed in front of me (at CAL) based solely on the fact that the have longer service than me? I think this is why they look at all factors, and weigh on them accordingly.

 

[TWA Dude]

Wow alpa merger policy is great and works well. I can't see where ABCDor E applies to the merger.

You don't have to. That's why it went to arbitration.

 

[eaglesview]

That is why it is only a factor. Say, for example that CAL and UAL merge, UAL is about to go into another bankeruptcy while CAL is not, should career expectations not be considered. Should someone furloughed from a company (UAL) that has no recall in sight now benefit from a merger an placed in front of me (at CAL) based solely on the fact that the have longer service than me? I think this is why they look at all factors, and weigh on them accordingly.

You know something the rest of us don't??

Should the moment someone takes a snap shot of an airline condem those that happened to be out on the street at that moment to being junior to everyone, even a new hire. Their years of service means nothing??

 

[TWA Dude]

TWA, you keep referring to the old ALPA merger. It has been changed to include longevity.

I'm aware of that. Will it make a difference? Nicolau was made well aware of the demographic differences between the East and West. Clearly, his interpretation of career expectations drove his thinking.

ALPA is a business like any other, the bottom line dictates policy.

Finally something we can agree on. Having said that, do you think Prater was smart in the way he handled the Easties after the Nicolau Award was announced?

 

[TWA Dude]

Should the moment someone takes a snap shot of an airline condem those that happened to be out on the street at that moment to being junior to everyone, even a new hire.

How can you attribute career expectations to somebody not even employed by that airline?

Their years of service means nothing??

No, they do mean something, just not as much as you'd like. On the AA web site I can see I'll retire at AA with a seniority number around 400. What's that worth? Until I'm back on the property (if that's what I ultimately choose to do) it's worth zero.