CNBC reports US Air / United in merger talks

[contrail67]

Folks, all of this is media speculation....so careful how much energy you spend on it...A merger probably will happen in the end but we just don't know with who yet.

 

[St. Nic]

UAL is now back with US pilots about DOH. Its been a long time coming. This thing is going down and the merged seniority lists (all three) will be DOH with fences, exactly what the real US pilots declared all along that was fair. Now the west kids will have to get in the back of the line where they belong, if they are even part of this merger. Phenix has nothing of value to anyone, except the flip flop crowd on Soutworst.

 

[eaglesview]

That is wrong. Call your merger rep and get briefed as to the new policy.

But since UAL pilots do indeed think they get DOH, I wonder how they're feeling now since US is more or less a very senior airline now, isn' it?.

East coast seniority does not worry me. Look how old they are. Most of them would not be players in the end. It's the younger AWA pilots who like to talk about thier relative seniority and have no problem jumping over the older pilots that have more longevity that bother me. As far as I am concerned DOH is still the way to go. So as to answer your question, this UAL pilot still advocates DOH even with the east.

 

[St. Nic]

East coast seniority does not worry me. Look how old they are. Most of them would not be players in the end. It's the younger AWA pilots who like to talk about thier relative seniority and have no problem jumping over the older pilots that have more longevity that bother me. As far as I am concerned DOH is still the way to go. So as to answer your question, this UAL pilot still advocates DOH even with the east.

Brilliant minds think allike!

 

[bizicmo]

I don't understand the merger with USair. What does USair have in there route structure that is so desirable to United? It's not the USair international flying. How does this improve United?

 

[ATRCA]

I don't understand the merger with USair. What does USair have in there route structure that is so desirable to United? It's not the USair international flying. How does this improve United?

It doesn't! I just gives Tilton an CO what they want. Hight priced stock options and a big payday.

 

[Captain X]

Their new policy uses longevity/DOH press on with life.

Once again, the true weakness of ALPA is displayed...the uneducated pilot who only listens to rumor, innuendo, wants to be spoon-fed every tidbit of information on an ongoing basis, jumps to conclusions based on a speed-read interpretation of legal text, and is to f!#$%in' lazy to do some actual research.

 

[FDJ2]

Oh well......at least UAL is now very much in favor of DOH, so the absolutely ill-conceived, irrational, inane NIC will be placed in a coffin like it should have been upon its first viewing.

Actually, the Nicolau award will be the LCC seniority list in any negotiation or arbitration. The UAL seniority list and the Nicolau list will be integrated if there is a merger. The coffin will be for USAPA.

 

[eaglesview]

Once again, the true weakness of ALPA is displayed...the uneducated pilot who only listens to rumor, innuendo, wants to be spoon-fed every tidbit of information on an ongoing basis, jumps to conclusions based on a speed-read interpretation of legal text, and is to f!#$%in' lazy to do some actual research.

OH ALPA has so many more weaknesses than me. That could be an entire website all on it's own. I do believe though that longevity has been put back into the ALPA merger policy.

That being said both carriers here are not ALPA so maybe we wouldn't be handcuffed by it anyway. I still think DOH/Longevity is the way to go.

 

[redflyer65]

This will drive CAL and United together. Just watch and see how it plays out.

Dougie will be left holding the bag again. I think he really does need to go into the night club business.

 

[poppi]

The best thing to do is short either stock today and sell it the next few days

 

[Flying Horses]

Change of Control Pay Raise?

I don't understand something. If there is a change of control provision in the East pilot contract that says wages would snapback in case of a change of control, then why didn't that happen when AWA bought USAir? I know there is a who bought who argument, but since everything is run now by AWA management, isn't that a change in control... which should have resulted in this mysterious snapback provision?

 

[Old School 737]

Does anybody know what the "Snap Back " pay rates would be? The ones that Doug is trying to avoid.

 

[V1cutsrfun]

Tilton, Smisek and Parker are all money hungry.....

Finger this out...

Tilton and Parker do the dance long enough to drag in CAL (Smisek) and AMR...

CAL just switched from Delta's "SkyTeam" to UAL's Star Alliance, and in the process is seeking scope relief for Rj's Greater then 50 seats. A merger with CAL and UAL with UAL being the aquiring company would give the scope relief CAL seeks, and still leaving CAL furloughs on the street. It would mitigate any future hiring as UAL has recalls first and therefore leverage other items and even ones not yet seen or dicussed.

If a LCC and UAL merger were to take place... CAL would again be the odd man out in both SkyTeam and Star Alliance... (reference previous conversations as to CAL joining Star Alliance) It would then need to look for a differnent partner either through a merger or another alliance...

Keep the faith... stay professional. We can all hang together or we can all hang seperately.:beer:

Never EVER give up scope...

I'd rather go deaf in my T-prop before more outsourcing of jobs to occure to "RJ's"

"Did you say something?":erm:

V1

 

[Fly-n-hi]

The Nic isn't going away. It will be the seniority list of the US Airways final product. Any airline that merges with US Airways will be merging with the Nic list. If anything, I believe that a merger will accelerate the implimentation of the Nic list.

No court in its right mind will ever throw it out. It would set a terrible precedent and open a huge can of worms.

On a side note, it would have been nice to have been able to bring a better contract to the table in the event that we do merge with United...or anyone else for that matter. At least we could have raised the bar even if it was only a little better. Unfortunately that ship sailed a long time ago.

 

[satpak77]

Sadly this may happen...

Doug Parker appears to be a merger-happy manager. RE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Parker

Parker has been with US Airways since June 1995, when he joined as senior vice president and chief financial officer of America West Airlines. He additionally held titles as executive vice president, corporate group, and chief operating officer before being elected chief executive officer and chairman of America West in September 2001. He continued as CEO of US Airways following the merger with America West Airlines in 2005. Under his tenure as CEO, he made an unsuccessful bid to merge US Airways and Delta Air Lines in 2007.

The lack of happy pilots/seniority list resolved has not stopped him from trying to merge the airline, obviously. Also, he appears to have previous desires for "the Chicago market", RE 2008 article: http://www.thestreet.com/s/us-airwa.../newsanalysis/aerospace-defense/10416987.html

For the fourth time in four years, Doug Parker is actively chasing his dream of a game-changing airline merger..... Parker's chase began in 2004, when America West bid for troubled ATA Airlines. "That was the first indication that Parker was going for market size, trying to break into the Chicago market," says aviation consultant Robert Mann. The effort failed because ATA's aircraft lessors determined they could get more value for their planes from foreign operators than from America West.....

Tilton, United CEO, is no stranger to mergers either. He was Chevron CEO before Chevron and Texaco merged. Per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glenn_Tilton ;

Tilton is controversial for his stance as a major advocate for consolidation in the airline industry. Tilton has stated he believes it is the only way to end commercial aviation's cycles of booms and busts. Since 2006, Tilton has been searching for a merger partner for United Airlines. After failed negotiations with Continental Airlines and US Airways Group, in the summer of 2008, Tilton settled on an agreement with Continental to form a marketing agreement, but not an official merger as he hoped for. The agreement is scheduled to take effect in 2009. Tilton still claims to be open and willing to participate in a merger transaction when the right opportunity arises.

In summary, you have two apparent merger happy managers, who may be talking.

In my opinion this is very possible. I wonder how the lists would be intergrated.

 

[satpak77]

The best thing to do is short either stock today and sell it the next few days

I would buy it long my friend. It is gonna climb a lot more until this thing dies or merges

 

[ALGFLYR]

The Nic isn't going away. It will be the seniority list of the US Airways final product. Any airline that merges with US Airways will be merging with the Nic list. If anything, I believe that a merger will accelerate the implimentation of the Nic list.

No court in its right mind will ever throw it out. It would set a terrible precedent and open a huge can of worms.

If you read the Nic award, it says it will be the seniority list when a joint contract between US Airways and America West is implemented. If there is a merger with United, there will never be a joint contract between the East and West, thus there will never be a Nic list. The only way it could happen is if first the East and West get a joint contract, and then work on yet another joint contract with United... Not gonna happen that way if this merger turns out to be true...

There would never be a court that would have "throw it out", as it would never exist. The Wake ruling only states that the Nic WILL be used in a joint contract between the East and West. Period. Again, a merger with United would never trigger that...

 

[satpak77]

My observation is that the US/Cactus merger list issues were not resolved when he made a run at Delta. Pilot seniority related merger complications has not curbed Parker's voracious appetite to merge companies

 

[flyguppy]

That is wrong. Call your merger rep and get briefed as to the new policy.

But since UAL pilots do indeed think they get DOH, I wonder how they're feeling now since US is more or less a very senior airline now, isn' it?.

Where do you guys get "UAL pilots think they get DOH"??

I don't know ANY UAL pilots (other than a couple blowhards on this forum) that think DOH is fair, equitable or desirable.

If you think that the majority of UAL pilots would be in lockstep with the Easties, you've been smoking crack.

 

[eaglesview]

Where do you guys get "UAL pilots think they get DOH"??

I don't know ANY UAL pilots (other than a couple blowhards on this forum) that think DOH is fair, equitable or desirable.

If you think that the majority of UAL pilots would be in lockstep with the Easties, you've been smoking crack.

And you think they, (we) are in favor of putting younger pilots senior to us because of their relative seniority?? Sorry I, and anyone that is thinking, will take the old guys as the senior folks. If you think that is becaus we would be "lockstep with the east" you would have to think again.

 

[flyguppy]

And you think they, (we) are in favor of putting younger pilots senior to us because of their relative seniority?? Sorry I, and anyone that is thinking, will take the old guys as the senior folks. If you think that is becaus we would be "lockstep with the east" you would have to think again.

Unless ALPA is removed from this property (highly unlikely in my opinion), the ALPA merger policy would be most influential.

DOH is not mentioned.

Your opinion and mine are moot unless the union or the policy changes.

 

[satpak77]

my question is who initiated this and is this a pure merger is Company-1 buying out Company-2 ?

 

[eaglesview]

Unless ALPA is removed from this property (highly unlikely in my opinion), the ALPA merger policy would be most influential.

DOH is not mentioned.

Your opinion and mine are moot unless the union or the policy changes.

You are correct DOH is not mentioned, longevity is.

 

[FDJ2]

If you read the Nic award, it says it will be the seniority list when a joint contract between US Airways and America West is implemented. If there is a merger with United, there will never be a joint contract between the East and West, thus there will never be a Nic list. The only way it could happen is if first the East and West get a joint contract, and then work on yet another joint contract with United... Not gonna happen that way if this merger turns out to be true...

There would never be a court that would have "throw it out", as it would never exist. The Wake ruling only states that the Nic WILL be used in a joint contract between the East and West. Period. Again, a merger with United would never trigger that...

Actually, the Nicolau award is the integrated LCC seniority list and it's BINDING. There is no other. You are discussing a contractual issue, not a seniority list issue. The contractual issues come and go, but the list survives. If LCC merges with another carrier the only seniority list that can be presented is the Nicolau list. Read the "Award".

"A. The integrated USAirways pilot list shall be the list attached to this award as exhibit A."

The Nicolau award is a fait a compli, a done deal, binding on all involved, no way to get rid of it and of course USAPA must defend it.

However, if there is a dispute over the meaning or interpretation of the award, Nicolau retains jurisdiction and will hear arguments then render his decision.

 

[satpak77]

Actually, the Nicolau award is the integrated LCC seniority list and it's BINDING. There is no other. You are discussing a contractual issue, not a seniority list issue. The contractual issues come and go, but the list survives. If LCC merges with another carrier the only seniority list that can be presented is the Nicolau list. Read the "Award".

"A. The integrated USAirways pilot list shall be the list attached to this award as exhibit A."

The Nicolau award is a fait a compli, a done deal, binding on all involved, no way to get rid of it and of course USAPA must defend it.

However, if there is a dispute over the meaning or interpretation of the award, Nicolau retains jurisdiction and will hear arguments then render his decision.

If the new legal company, post-merger, is "United Airlines Group" or just "United Inc" with the name US Airways and all variances and leftovers of US Airways identity erased, does this award still legally bind the parties? Just curious. Can it be declared "in-valid" post-merger?

I read the award it is says "US Airways" all over it but no apparent provision for future mergers or takeovers.

"You are now a United employee" etc etc

???

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

At the risk of steering away from the SLI food flight and sounding like a A.netter:

What does LCC bring to UAL?

UAL already has a relatively decent domestic hub structure...ORD, DEN, SFO, IAD. Great Pacific network. Passable European presence. Only of of those hubs has meaningful LCC competition.

East side LCC brings a reasonable O&D hub in PHL and good N/S connecting hub in CLT (something UAL has always lacked), both reasonably free of competition. Good Caribbean ops and a good number of European destinations, as well as a relatively strong east coast presence which UAL has always wanted.

West side? PHX, a traditionally low yield market. LAS, ditto... But assuming they're cutting LAS loose, PHX would probably remain, as a SW connecting point and hope the O&D in PHX recovers with the economy.

This hook up would provide hubs in 5 of the top 15 metro areas, including 2 in the top 5.

OTOH, a UAL-CAL hook up would give you hubs in the in 6 of the top 15 cities, including 3 in the top 6. Europe would be strengthened, and PAC would be in great shape with the addition of CAL Micro.

For a truly fearsome competitor, you could look at a UAL-AMR hook up. They would be #1 or 2 in the Pacific and Europe, and own SA, and would have hubs in 8 of the top 15 metro areas, including all of the top 5.

By comparison, the new DAL only has 3 strong hubs in the top 15. NYC (kinda sorta...in progress). ATL is number 9, Detroit is 11. Seattle, which isn't really a DAL hub, is 15. Hard to tell if LAX is a hub or just a focus city with the Alaska thing going on, FWIW, MSP is number 16, CVG is 24, MEM is 41 and SLC is 48.

Nu

 

[satpak77]

Heyas,

What does LCC bring to UAL?

Nu

I thinks its more a question of Doug and Glenn saying "together, we can own the world" (and fight off LUV, CAL, DAL)

Think of Crips and Bloods and a bunch of other LA gangs, all fighting over turf. Now the Bloods and Crips merge and create a supergang to fight the other gangs

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/sh...limb-on-merger-talk-2010-04-08?dist=afterbell

"The problem is not US Airways needs to do a merger," said US Airways Chief Executive Doug Parker, during a post-earnings call in January. "To the contrary, as we just showed with these [fourth-quarter] results, we're doing as well as anybody. The problem is the industry is doing poorly, and the industry does poorly because there's too much fragmentation, and reducing that will create some real value."
United and US Airways represent the country's fourth- and fifth-largest carriers in terms of mainline capacity. Combined they would become the largest, surpassing Delta.

 

[FDJ2]

If the new legal company, post-merger, is "United Airlines", with the name US Airways and all variances and leftovers of US Airways identity erased, does this award still legally bind the parties? Just curious. Can it be declared "in-valid" post-merger?

I read the award it is says "US Airways" all over it but no apparent provision for future mergers or takeovers.

"You are now a United employee" etc etc

???

If US Airways changed its name to USair, would the list still be binding?

Of course.

The best way to think of it is that the award is binding on the pilots. Changing agents or corporate transactions will not change that reality. Whoever represents the pilots, in whichever corporation those pilots are employed, will be obliged utilize that list, even when constructing a new integrated list with another pilot group.

 

[satpak77]

If US Airways changed its name to USair, would the list still be binding?

Of course.

The best way to think of it is that the award is binding on the pilots. Changing agents or corporate transactions will not change that reality. Whoever represents the pilots, in whichever corporation those pilots are employed, will be obliged utilize that list, even when constructing a new integrated list with another pilot group.

OK roger that, I was just curious