CMR President's Message - Paycuts anyone?

[ATR-DRIVR]

Had not heard of Comair bidding for the 88's, is that just speculation or board chatter? I find it a bit hard to imagine. You're right though, the kids on the street should come first and then we should ALL get together and work on the future of the company.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I don't see why J4J with Captain slots for any NEW aircraft would be a problem - emphasize "New" aircraft. Nobody would lose any current slots and then the Comair/ASA pilots would get all of the added Captain and FO slots as the furloughees are called up to the mainline. For any furloughees who do not have the seniority for Captain positions on NEW aircraft, then they should go to the bottom of the seniority list as FOs. That seems pretty reasonable to me and it is a win-win situation for everyone as Comair/ASA would be adding more new aircraft vs. no real growth at all. Isn't this being applied at both UAL and USAirways?

What part of keeping the seniority system intact is hard to understand? FYI the UAL J4J does not give the furloughees anything other than a flying job and a slot at the bottom of the list. They do get 2nd year pay right off the bat though. The minute you start compromising the seniority system you lose.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Why can't DAL bring future RJ's onto mainline?

Because mainline employees will park, unload, clean, and maintain those aircraft. Remember the "C" or ""D" scale paid to regional employees is spread through all employee groups. It's not just pilot and FA costs.

 

[FDJ2]

Because mainline employees will park, unload, clean, and maintain those aircraft. Remember the "C" or ""D" scale paid to regional employees is spread through all employee groups. It's not just pilot and FA costs.

Not necessarily so. The Song 757s are flown by mainline pilots, but everything else is Song. The same can be done with RJs.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Not necessarily so. The Song 757s are flown by mainline pilots, but everything else is Song. The same can be done with RJs.

I wasn't aware of that. Cut those Song rates in half and it would pretty much be a wash with the regionals. How do they handle MX on Song aircraft? It's hard to imagine a separate group of mechanics working on them.

 

[FDJ2]

I wasn't aware of that. Cut those Song rates in half and it would pretty much be a wash with the regionals. How do they handle MX on Song aircraft? It's hard to imagine a separate group of mechanics working on them.

I suppose they reimburse DAL for any services a DAL mechanic does on a Song aircraft. I believe DCI carriers do the same for certain services from time to time. DAL management must be pleased with the final product and its cosats since they are increasing the Song fleet from 36 to 48 aircraft this year. It's interesting that you would state, "cut those Song rates in half and it would pretty much be a wash with the regionals." What Song rates are you referring too, what are they and how much do the regionals pay for the same job?

 

[Looking4Traffic]

No Concessions

Listen, there will always be disagreement about the issue of concessions and I respect every pilot who's expressed their opinion in this thread.

Here's my opinion and I want you to hear what I'm saying whether you're at Comair, Delta, ASA, Northwest, Pinnacle, Skywest, Mesa, TSA, USAir, Express, Chataq or any other airline . . . whether you're a Republican or Democrat . . . whether you have 200 hours or 20,000 hours . . .

I cannot and will not vote for concessions. And as a two-year pilot at Comair, I have more to gain from concessions than most of you.

The reason I will not agree to concessions is (1) because my value as a professional pilot is more than $38 per hour and (2) because my family cannot afford to live on less than $38 per hour.

Over 250 people entrusted their lives to me and to my >10-year captain today, flying a jet for six legs throughout the Northeast corridor in and out of horrendous weather. We're living in hotels away from our spouses and kids, eating food that we don't want to eat and working 14-15 hours to get paid for seven.

For those of you who reply "if you don't like it, get out", I say "there's no rule that you can't get paid what you're worth just because you like your job."

For those of you who say "it's the law of supply and demand" or a response to the "race to the bottom", I reply that this is the reason that unions were created: to make sure that employees were adequately represented during difficult times when management used the economy and poor debt management as an excuse to undercompensate their workers.

To those of you who are looking to get your PIC time and move on to "bigger and better things", I say "take a look around you". Where are you going?

Look, nobody here has clean hands. I know that it can be argued that my job came at the expense of a Delta pilot who is no longer flying the same route in an MD-80 or 737. I'm just saying that the buck has to stop somewhere and for me, it stops here. At some point the madness has to end and we have to take a stand. CEOs and other executives are the people who make the difficult decisions about the direction the companies should take and then the rest of us labor to implement those decisions. Pilots, flight attendants, ramp agents and ticket agents are the people who keep these airlines running day after day. Don't blame employees if the executives made a wrong decision that cost the company millions (or billions) of dollars; don't give them the golden parachutes and make us take pay cuts.

We should stop blaming each other for the problems that were facing. We're not responsible. We didn't do anything wrong. We're just trying to make a living.

But let's not sell ourselves out any longer. I'm worth more than $38 an hour -- we all are -- and I'm not agreeing to a penny less. If that means that I lose my job or have to sit shotgun for 10 years, then so be it.

At least I'll have my self-respect.

 

[DDpaysoff]

Lookingfortraffic

Awesome post. Agree.

 

[XRMEFLYER]

Listen, there will always be disagreement about the issue of concessions and I respect every pilot who's expressed their opinion in this thread.

Here's my opinion and I want you to hear what I'm saying whether you're at Comair, Delta, ASA, Northwest, Pinnacle, Skywest, Mesa, TSA, USAir, Express, Chataq or any other airline . . . whether you're a Republican or Democrat . . . whether you have 200 hours or 20,000 hours . . .

I cannot and will not vote for concessions. And as a two-year pilot at Comair, I have more to gain from concessions than most of you.

The reason I will not agree to concessions is (1) because my value as a professional pilot is more than $38 per hour and (2) because my family cannot afford to live on less than $38 per hour.

Over 250 people entrusted their lives to me and to my >10-year captain today, flying a jet for six legs throughout the Northeast corridor in and out of horrendous weather. We're living in hotels away from our spouses and kids, eating food that we don't want to eat and working 14-15 hours to get paid for seven.

For those of you who reply "if you don't like it, get out", I say "there's no rule that you can't get paid what you're worth just because you like your job."

For those of you who say "it's the law of supply and demand" or a response to the "race to the bottom", I reply that this is the reason that unions were created: to make sure that employees were adequately represented during difficult times when management used the economy and poor debt management as an excuse to undercompensate their workers.

To those of you who are looking to get your PIC time and move on to "bigger and better things", I say "take a look around you". Where are you going?

Look, nobody here has clean hands. I know that it can be argued that my job came at the expense of a Delta pilot who is no longer flying the same route in an MD-80 or 737. I'm just saying that the buck has to stop somewhere and for me, it stops here. At some point the madness has to end and we have to take a stand. CEOs and other executives are the people who make the difficult decisions about the direction the companies should take and then the rest of us labor to implement those decisions. Pilots, flight attendants, ramp agents and ticket agents are the people who keep these airlines running day after day. Don't blame employees if the executives made a wrong decision that cost the company millions (or billions) of dollars; don't give them the golden parachutes and make us take pay cuts.

We should stop blaming each other for the problems that were facing. We're not responsible. We didn't do anything wrong. We're just trying to make a living.

But let's not sell ourselves out any longer. I'm worth more than $38 an hour -- we all are -- and I'm not agreeing to a penny less. If that means that I lose my job or have to sit shotgun for 10 years, then so be it.

At least I'll have my self-respect.

Ditto!

 

[737 Pylt]

well said

But let's not sell ourselves out any longer. I'm worth more than $38 an hour -- we all are -- and I'm not agreeing to a penny less. If that means that I lose my job or have to sit shotgun for 10 years, then so be it.

At least I'll have my self-respect.

It's a great thought, and a nice dream, however, somewhere, someone will always be willing to do your job/ my job for less! Its just facts!
737

 

[49W]

They can have the job then. $38 an hour for pilots equates to less than $19 dollars an hour in real-world jobs where you work and get paid for 40 hours a week. Being that upgrade times at regionals which pay this rate will probably be 6 years or more, people will find better jobs in other industries. There comes a point where it just ain't worth it anymore.

 

[asacap]

Screw it, full pay till the last day!

 

[N2264J]

Re: CMR President's Message...

I cannot and will not vote for concessions.

I agree. With Comair being the 7th cheapest to operate in the seven "large regional" carriers and pulling down tens of millions per quarter in profit at the worst possible time in aviation history, there's no need for concessions here. Delta's financial problem isn't at Comair or ASA, it's at mainline.

We've heard all that management bluff and bluster before and during the strike. Remember? Delta was going to shut down Comair and bring in Mesa if we didn't capitulate on the second settlement offer and the Comair pilots wished them well with that idea and then voted it down. They spent $680,000,000 to keep from paying us $50,000,000 - money they'd probably like to have back right now. (Interestingly enough, at the same time, they negotiated a contract at mainline that virtually guaranteed Delta's eventual spiral toward bankruptcy). I don't care what the corporate stucture is, it is immoral to try to solve this problem on the backs of Comair and ASA pilots. Our MECs should be making that clear.

Voting down the second settlement offer was our finest hour and it looks like we're going to get the opportunity to do it again. I've heard from pilots who came to Comair after the strike to be part of a pilot group whose stand against management they admired and respected. Now, they have the chance to stand with us and say "No" too but I gather a few are still thinking about it. Someone has to set the bar and I say it may as well be us - again.

Placing aircraft at different "contractors" and hub cities is a managment decision but if Comair flies them, this is what it's going to cost. Personally, in these troubled economic times, the rationale of Delta transferring any profit at all to a share holder group that isn't Delta stock holders escapes me. We are Delta Inc. pilots and, by definition, we shouldn't have to bid on Delta flying. (Thanks ALPA!) It's a chump's game and we should collectively refuse to play. Once we buy into a "consessions for growth" sham, it will never end.

 

[surplus1]

I think most of the new growth will be in mainline, with 100 seaters eventually. Those aircraft will most likely go to mainline---and Grinstein pointed out when asked if DCI would eventually fly 100 seaters---he stated, "I can't see them flying it." He may not be around forever, but Dalpa will try to keep their pilots employed.

I would like to see you grow, get your furloughees back, and get some new airplanes. Whatever type of equipment the Company decides to put on your operating certificate you should fly. It is expected that dalpa will try to keep their pilots employed and I don't know anyone who disagrees with that idea. However, you need to keep them employed at Delta, not somewhere else. As soon as you try to keep your people employed by placing them on our list ahead of our people, you have crossed the line.

Some people on this board may think it is "Greedy" for Dalpa to go after some 70 seaters----while those same people think Comair should bid for DL's Md88s or future 100 seaters.

I'm one of the "some people" who thinks dalpa should keep its hands off the 70-seaters. IF the Company decides to operate more of them and they put them on your operating certificate, then you should fly them. If the Company puts more of them on our operating certificate, then we will fly them. Incidentally, both of our current contracts call for exactly that. If some of your people want to accept any vacancies at the entry level I would welcome them. But, if those airplanes are on our certificate do not expect to place any of your people in the captain positions and bypass our people. That's not going to happen.

I'm not one of the "some people" who thinks Comair should "bid" on any airplane that you currently fly. In fact I don't think we should be "bidding" against each other at all. I also don't think we should "bid" on any new 100 seaters, unless you decide to "bid" on new 70-seaters. As soon as you do that and especially if you agree to fly them for less than we do, you will have started a bidding war. If you decide to do that, then you can expect a counter bid.

It's really pretty simple. You are protecting "your" people. We are protecting "our" people. YOU created the fence between us, then you have subsequently relocated the fence to a different position and now you want to relocate it further. Sorry, but that is unacceptable to us. Stay on your side of the fence, which you created and we will stay on our side of the fence. Stop trying to relocate the fence at our expense. When you do those two things we can all live happily ever after. If you decide not to do those things, then expect to live with the consequences of your decisions. Get used to the fact that you do NOT have super rights to anything.

I think we should look at who is on the street first. When everyone is back, then there should be some frank discussions.
Bye Bye--General Lee

YOU should look at who is on the street and how they got there. YOU made the bed. I understand that you don't want to lie in it but that's what happens. Don't expect to solve your problems, which are of your own making, by placing "your" pilots ahead of our pilots on our list. We can have discussions any time you want. Just don't expect the "discussions" to lead to super seniority for your pilots. That's not on the table. That is as "frank" as I can be.

The only thing that might put it on the table is bankruptcy that results in voiding our contract. In that case, your contract will be voided too, the discussions will be with the Company and your guess as to what happens is as good as mine.

Let's hope for the best for everyone. Candidly, "the plan" or at least what we know about it doesn't seem to impress anyone external to the Company. Hopefully that will change.

 

[surplus1]

Once we buy into a "consessions for growth" sham, it will never end.

Well said!

 

[PositiveRate]

XRMEFLYER,

Amen brother. A very well thought out argument. Your sentiments are shared by countless FO's here on the line. No worries. We have serious jobs and we're already underpaid as it is...the only way the bar will drop is if it is handed back to us at a lower position by a bankruptcy judge...but I try to think positive, hence the name.

Someone buy this guy a beer!

 

[bvt1151]

Here's the problem with not taking concessions for growth:

CHQ WILL!

Management is no longer our greatest enemy. Its the pilot who's willing to do it for less, and Chautauqua has already proven several times that they are content underbidding current rates in order to grow at our expense.

Your reasoning is all very honorable, but I'm not ready to end up another Piedmont or Allegheny just because we were standing on our soapbox. What good is it if you're standing on your ship at the bottom of the ocean saying "I told you so!"

That being said, I'm not advocating concessions for growth, but I am saying we can't just blindly say "no" on principle. Basically, we as wholly owned pilots need to make it worth management's while to use us over the likes of CHQ and Skywest. We can be cheaper, which we've already decided we aren't willing to do with pilot pay. The quality difference between CHQ and the W/O's isn't enough to offeset the extra cost for Delta, but this is somewhere we can extend the gap. There are also several other alternatives to concessions that can bring more revenue into the Delta system, rather than cut costs. It is imperative for the union to maintain an open mind to these types if initiatives, instead of saying "no thank you" and walking out. I have heard of no attempts at doing this. All you hear is the chest-thumping ,whollier-than-thou (yes you read that right), "No's" on the union boards. As soon as somebody opens dialog on the boards, they are immediately called everything but "scab".

I don't care what management's reason is, all I know is there's nothing to keep them from not only stagnating Comair, but also to take aircraft away. You can argue all you want about how managment doesn't need concessions, but the fact of the matter is, Chautauqua has already given it to them. If we're not going to give them concessions, then I want alternatives, and it is the unions responsibility to provide them. I will not watch airplanes go to our competitors, or God forbid our pilots be furloughed when our union has offered no alternatives.

Get off your soapbox, and give me some alternatives to concessions.

 

[Flash 7]

Well Said

As much as I feel like the hell with Mgt. and our 89 day strike was not for nothing. I'm afraid that the market forces will dictate our future position.

Unfortunately, I think the bar will continue to spiral even lower, much lower. The new wave will be the ultra low cost carriers. USair will be the first to fall, Mesa will pick up some pieces and fly mainline aircraft and undercut JBlue and Airtran. They'll have to cut costs to compete. New entrants will pop up and do the same.
Just wait till you see Virgin USA pay rates. There will never be pricing power again. In a commodity market costs dictate profits. Even mighty SWA will have to cut costs eventually.

If you want to see the future just look at the Canadian and European markets.
Ryanair capts average 55K US. Scary!

I think we''l eventually see 777 capts flying for 100K.

 

[surplus1]

bvt1151,

When you have taken concessions to "match" CHQ, do you believe they will simply remain passive? I don't; I think they will react by giving concessions themselves and we'll be right back where we are now. Only the numbers will be different.

I don't have a crystal ball or a magic wand so I can't produce any miracle solutions. However, if we pilots continue this "bidding for flying" it won't be too long before this job simply isn't worth having. Where does it end? Should we have our FO's work for minimum wage and our captains for $15 an hour? Truth is there are no pilots at Comair earning unreasonably high compensation. There are lots of pilots elsewhere earning unreasonably low compensation. It is easy to copy the successful, but it is dam*ed hard to want to copy those who have failed to do for themselves.

Maybe I don't have an answer but I'm pretty sure that simply lowering our wages over an over again to keep or get flying will make that flying something I can do without. Management won't stop because we agree to pay cuts, they will simply ask for more pay cuts in the future and there will always be someone who is willing to do it for less.

If pilots were smart we would all draw the line and say no to lower wages, when the company refuses we all resign. Management can then fly the airplanes themselves or park them wherever suits their fancy. Trouble with that is we aren't smart. So, we'll continue to make up for management failings by competing against each other while they continue to enjoy high salaries, bonuses and golden parachutes.

Remember, the slave owners did not give up their slaves because they thought they should be treated fairly. They did it because they were forced to do it and it was easier than burning all the plantations when the slaves said ... no more. It is time for us all to say... no more.

 

[Heavy Set]

As much as I feel like the hell with Mgt. and our 89 day strike was not for nothing. I'm afraid that the market forces will dictate our future position.

Unfortunately, I think the bar will continue to spiral even lower, much lower. The new wave will be the ultra low cost carriers. USair will be the first to fall, Mesa will pick up some pieces and fly mainline aircraft and undercut JBlue and Airtran. They'll have to cut costs to compete. New entrants will pop up and do the same.
Just wait till you see Virgin USA pay rates. There will never be pricing power again. In a commodity market costs dictate profits. Even mighty SWA will have to cut costs eventually.

If you want to see the future just look at the Canadian and European markets.
Ryanair capts average 55K US. Scary!

I think we''l eventually see 777 capts flying for 100K.

Emirates out of Dubai already pays its 777 Captains around the $100K level if not LESS. We should ask Typhoonpilot (ex USAirways and current Emirates 777 Captain) how much to expect at Emirates... Everyone seems to have been negative toward the "greedy" Delta pilots out there over the last few months - but they were also, indirectly, trying to keep the bar somewhat high for the rest of us.... Sure, they have their own salary motives, but their fight against the tide would have kept the averages a little more palatable for everyone else.

 

[Flash 7]

"If pilots were smart we would all draw the line and say no to lower wages, when the company refuses we all resign."


I agree Surplus.

But I think we all can agree that ain't gonna happen. The lines that ALPA drew forever prevented any kind of unity. And even if we did market forces ultimately would prevail as no union will have power when the company cannot make money.

We would indeed be better off walking away for good.

 

[bvt1151]

Perhaps you didn't read my post thouroughly, Surplus. I said no concessions. I also described the reaction when a pilot mentions the possibilities. That you have demonstrated nicely.

If pilots were smart we would all draw the line and say no to lower wages, when the company refuses we all resign.

We've already drawn the line and said no. The problem is, while we were busy drawing the line and saying we won't fly airplanes for that amount of money, CHQ jumped in and said "we'll do it!" ALPA has already shown their inability to unionize their own union, and CHQ isn't even ALPA. Don't see your suggestion happening, ever. So lets return to reality and offer some realistic suggestions.

After our reps simply walk out on managment during the inevitable request, I will be furloughed long before you. Can't happen you say? Just because Comair has been lucky in the past, don't let that lull you into the false belief that we'll come out on the other end smelling like roses. There have already been rumors about the 70's being consolidated at ASA. Whether or not that is true is meaningless. What is important is that all they have to do is tell us the month before the bid packet is issued that we will no longer be flying those aircraft. Then what? We lose over 250 pilots overnight. But at least we told them to pound dirt, right? We stood tall! Oh, and on a side note: we took 13% casualties.

Our future is no longer in our hands. It depends on other pilot groups raising their salaries and they just aren't doing it. We can't just stand around saying "look what we did for 89 days," while the likes of CHQ say "Hey, great. Nice planes, yoink!" Frankly, what happened three years ago is in the past, and its time to face the facts; the very people Comair stuck their necks out for in '01 are the same people ready to drop the gauntlet.

Do you really believe Comair couldn't shrink? Randy didn't blatantly come out and say he will be asking for concessions for the he11 of it. There doesn't seem to be any major growth heading to DCI, especially with the inevitible demise of USAir and all the RJ's with pilots that will immediately become available. This means Randy is hinting towards concessions to retain our own aircraft. In fact he said that very thing on Wednesday. Are you willing to snub alternatives to concessions even when pilots are being furloughed? And yes, there are alternatives. First step in finding them, is to swallow our pride. Lets work on that one first.

The RJ labor market has turned on us. There is way too much capacity (pilots) and when Airways goes under that will drastically get worse. Delta would not have much trouble replacing our entire airline with ex-USAir pilots and aircraft. We cannot afford to pound our chest like we could before September 11, 2001. There are too many people willing to slide in behind us and take what we have.

So what do we do? How about establish some quality directives coming out of the union representation? How about some research into revenue-boosting operations? Lets make it too costly for DCI not to use us. How about combined pay rates of larger aircraft to allow increased efficiency? How about some research into J4J in order to set limits to protect the interest of Comair pilots, and to secure future growth? With some foresight, this is very possible.
We have to find a way to be competitive, and it is the responsibility of management as well as the union.

 

[P38JLightning]

eliminate the PFU low bidders

>>>When you have taken concessions to "match" CHQ, do you believe they will simply remain passive? I don't;



Of course not. If they will low ball us to get growth just immagine what they will do to keep their jobs. Concessions for growth or the promise of growth, or to try to "win the next bid"? Absolutely not.

I think we agree the answer is one list, the only debate is how we get there. I think the fantasy of merger policy arbitration without advanced protections for the Delta pilots is, as you said in regards to them even having the remote chance to come to our list ahead of anyone, is "off the table."

We now have to think outside of the box. We need scope and we need it bad. Full pay to the last day isn't going to help anyone, except the low ballers and management, as we keep our planes warm for the back stabbers when we start losing bids to keep current flying.

We must stop that no matter what. Step one, all growth to DAL and WO's. Step two eliminate the contract pilot supply houses by any means necessary, paycuts included.

Either we make it happen by working together, or we get phased out while the few among us enjoy the 120/hr RJ rates and 10% B fund that quite simply won't be there for the majority of us.

 

[N2264J]

Re: CMR President's Message...

Here's the problem with not taking concessions for growth: CHQ WILL!

I don't care what CHQ does. Comair is Delta's finest asset. We need to start acting like it.

For the sake of ASA who is in difficult negotiations right now - No concessions for growth.

 

[737 Pylt]

some valid points

I would like to see you grow, get your furloughees back, and get some new airplanes. Whatever type of equipment the Company decides to put on your operating certificate you should fly. It is expected that dalpa will try to keep their pilots employed and I don't know anyone who disagrees with that idea. However, you need to keep them employed at Delta, not somewhere else. As soon as you try to keep your people employed by placing them on our list ahead of our people, you have crossed the line.

First off, let me thank you for the kind words re: our furloughees. I know it is a tough time for them, but the recalls are definately helping.

I'm one of the "some people" who thinks dalpa should keep its hands off the 70-seaters. IF the Company decides to operate more of them and they put them on your operating certificate, then you should fly them. If the Company puts more of them on our operating certificate, then we will fly them.

Holy cow! For once, we are in total agreement. Personally (and this is strictly my opinion)I would like to see Comair and ASA be as expensive as possible, so some of the flying would return to mainline.

I'm not one of the "some people" who thinks Comair should "bid" on any airplane that you currently fly. In fact I don't think we should be "bidding" against each other at all. I also don't think we should "bid" on any new 100 seaters, unless you decide to "bid" on new 70-seaters. As soon as you do that and especially if you agree to fly them for less than we do, you will have started a bidding war. If you decide to do that, then you can expect a counter bid.

Again, I can't believe this, but I completely agree with you here. I do feel that the 100 seaters should/will go to mainline.

It's really pretty simple. You are protecting "your" people. We are protecting "our" people. YOU created the fence between us, then you have subsequently relocated the fence to a different position and now you want to relocate it further. Sorry, but that is unacceptable to us. Stay on your side of the fence, which you created and we will stay on our side of the fence. Stop trying to relocate the fence at our expense. When you do those two things we can all live happily ever after. If you decide not to do those things, then expect to live with the consequences of your decisions. Get used to the fact that you do NOT have super rights to anything.

And you were doing so good up to this point. Remember, all DAL flying belongs to DALPA. We decide how much of it to outsource in the scope section of our contract. Who management gets to fly that is completely up to them. The line in the sand was drawn at #57 re: the 70 seater. #58 now goes to mainline. Like it or not. This is not "relocating the fence" as you put it.

YOU should look at who is on the street and how they got there. YOU made the bed. I understand that you don't want to lie in it but that's what happens. Don't expect to solve your problems, which are of your own making, by placing "your" pilots ahead of our pilots on our list. We can have discussions any time you want. Just don't expect the "discussions" to lead to super seniority for your pilots. That's not on the table. That is as "frank" as I can be.

Easy there big fella...... Nobody is tryingto place DALPA pilots ahead of CMR/ASA or any other pilots on their respective seniority lists. We know quite well what we were getting into when we signed our contract, and you're right, we made our bed and are now lying in it. But anyone who can't see that 1060 furloughed DAL pilots weren't replaced by countless DCI pilots, then they are a fool! That's as frank as I can be!

The only thing that might put it on the table is bankruptcy that results in voiding our contract. In that case, your contract will be voided too, the discussions will be with the Company and your guess as to what happens is as good as mine.

If we (DAL) go into BK, then we are all in huge, and serious trouble!
Let's hope for the best for everyone. Candidly, "the plan" or at least what we know about it doesn't seem to impress anyone external to the Company. Hopefully that will change.[/QUOTE]
Agreed! Just look at how poorly the stock price is doing
regards,
737

 

[bvt1151]

I don't care what CHQ does. Comair is Delta's finest asset. We need to start acting like it.

Famous last words...

Get off your high horse and take a look around. Comair is not Delta's go-to anymore. I'm very proud of my airline, but I have no delusions about our abilities to compete in the current marketplace. US Airways just filed today. Where do you think all of those RJ's are going to go after the inevitible liquidation? So now the market will be flooded with 50-seat RJ's, most of which are the ERJ type that Comair couldn't operate competitively, and our closest competition just received authorization to fly the EMB 170, our only real chance for growth besides the CRJ-700/900 which DCI has already expressed interest in consolidating elsewhere and continuing growth in the EMB airframes instead. We've got aircraft nearing 15 years-old, with no replacements in sight, no guarantee the current aircraft will remain on the property, and no furlough protection for almost half of our pilots. Three other airlines are already operating out of our concourse in CVG, and our only hope is this long-shot brand scope, which is easily quashed by Fred simply saying "No." Won't happen? Do a Google for Delta's response to our air-tight merger petition with ASA. Seems a lot of time was "invested" by our union for a one-page response that very politely said "nice try."

Just because Comair has been successful in the past does not mean that can't change in a heartbeat. If you study Comair's history, you'll find that every success was a result of great minds pushing the envelope and taking calculated risks when nobody else would, and this includes the strike. Never did they sit back and say, "We're the best, lets just ride this one out." The simple fact is we are the highest paid pilots in the industry (or second to Horizon depending on how you calculate), and yet we can offer little more than the lowest paid. I'm not suggesting we lower our price, I'm suggesting we find ways to set ourselves apart from the lower paid pilots.

First, the job of our most junior pilot must be unquestionably secured.
Egos will get us nowhere. If it means apologizing to every Delta furlough for not doing something we should have done long ago because of what our reps called "taking a stand", then I'm all for it. It will cost me, or you, nothing. If you're too proud to do that, then perhaps you could apologize to the most jr. Comair pilot for his life-sentence of reserve in the right-seat due to your pride. Better hurry. He won't be around for long, and who can blame him?

Never have I called for concessions. All I'm suggesting is some creative thinking and some checked egos. Perhaps that's too much to ask.

 

[jetflyer]

Let's Be Real

I'm at Comair, and I heard Fred Butrell and Randy do their dances last Wednesday.

I honestly believe that Comair will not get another plane past the last three 70s coming unless changes in pay are made at Comair. They are making a point. IN THE LONG RUN they come out ahead. They keep future costs low at all their REGIONALS from RAMPERS, MECHANICS, PILOTS, AND FLIGHT ATTENDATS, because BY NOT GIVING COMAIR GROWTH IT MAKES A POINT. It says to all the regionals with Delta including ASA pilots in negotiations, "IF YOU ARE PAID WELL WE WON'T USE YOU"

We all know this as the good 'ole WHIPSAW.

THEY don't care if we are ONE OF THE CHEAPEST REGIONALS to operate now. In the future we won't be. As we stay stagnant more and more Comair pilots will get more senior and a lot more will be making 100 GRAND in five years. This will make us more expensive. There also will be NO MORE 20,000 Newbies, to average the Labor costs down.

I know we at COMAIR WILL NOT GIVE UP PAY. WE SHOULDN'T!!! We all know that, and we're gonna be stagnant because of it, but I say OH WELL.
That's the reality, and we'll have to live with it.

I already know it will be 2015 before I'm a Captain and I'll be fine with that too. I didn't become a pilot for the pay right??

Atleast people at other airlines can thank us

Jet

 

[N2264J]

Re: CMR President's Message...

Famous last words...Get off your high horse and take a look around...If it means apologizing to every Delta furlough for not doing something we should have done long ago because of what our reps called taking a stand, then I'm all for it. It will cost me, or you, nothing. If you're too proud to do that, then perhaps you could apologize to the most jr. Comair pilot for his life-sentence of reserve in the right-seat due to your pride. Better hurry. He won't be around for long, and who can blame him?

You're hysterical with fear; not a useful emotion.

We're competing in the marketplace just fine. As you have correctly pointed out here, we're pulling down tens of millions a quarter for Delta at the worst possible time in commercial aviation history.

You want alternatives to voluntary concessions - how about this? You won't have carry the shame of selling out ASA, yourself, and the profession to your grave with you, wondering what might have been had we the moral strength and character to hold the line.

 

[bvt1151]

You're hysterical with fear; not a useful emotion...

You want alternatives to voluntary concessions - how about this? You won't have carry the shame of selling out ASA, yourself, and the profession to your grave with you, wondering what might have been had we the moral strength
and character to hold the line.

What do quality and revenue initiatives have to do with ASA? Absolutely nothing. Do you understand the difference between that and pay concessions? Now that's hysterical.

Besides, what you call "hysterical with fear," we in the business call situationally aware. If you call calling for change being hysterical with fear, then what do you call huddling in the corner while the industry changes around us? "Don't look and it will just go away."

Take off your whollier-than-thou blinders and take a look around. Comair doesn't succeed just because its Comair. Your argument is that if we just sit tight and do nothing we'll still get growth because "we're Comair." How logical is that?

Nobody's asking for anything out of your pocket. Just a little effort. There have already been several suggestions put forth to the union leaders, who have quickly said, "that's not our job, that's managements." I say it is the job of the union to do whatever they can to provide job security, whatever it is.

 

[jetflyer]

Let's be real

Well said BVT.

It is amazing at Comair the thoughts of a lot of the pilots.

You hear this from the senior Captains all the time:

"Comair has always grown, it won't stop"

Comair is going to stop growing really soon. EVEN THOUGH COMAIR IS MAKING MONEY AND HAS LOW COSTS, Delta is going to make an example of us at Comair. It will keep labor costs lower in the future because other labor groups will be afraid to ask for a lot better in the future. They are going to whipsaw us like Heyall. Can't blame them. IT'S BUSINESS and ALL I BET COMAIR PILOTS WILL DO IS BE ANGRY, MAD, AND BITTER. But does that help?
In bankruptcy Comair may see more growth after Comair's pay is stolen (if that's possible). Or if Comair takes Delta pilots on their seniority list then Comair may see more 70s etc.

You also hear this from senior Captains: "Comair is always sent where Delta needs help from regionals. We're the best. Comair's performance numbers are only bad because we fly in the Northeast. Let's see CHQ do as well as us in the Northeast. Chq has good performance numbers because they only fly in Orlando."

CHQ is just as good as Comair. Delta thinks so atleast. They do fly in the North East. They've been going in to JFK and LGA for a long time. They have also been flying into DFW and Columbus for a while. CHQ is becoming Delta's "GO-TO" baby for the future. Fred Butrell also said last Wednesday, that if and when US AIR goes INTO LIQUIDATION, Delta has first rights to all of the CHQ JETS that flew for US AIR. SO CHQ is going to see EVEN MORE GROWTH for Delta in addition to the planes they are getting from the RFP.


JUST BECAUSE we're paid well at Comair doesn't make us the best. ALSO because someone else is paid less doesn't mean they can't do as good of a job as Comair. I love working at Comair because everyone here is so PROUD, HAPPY, UPBEAT, and POSITIVE. We should also all learn to be realistic.

Jet