Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Friendliest aviation Ccmmunity on the web
  • Modern site for PC's, Phones, Tablets - no 3rd party apps required
  • Ask questions, help others, promote aviation
  • Share the passion for aviation
  • Invite everyone to Flightinfo.com and let's have fun

CMR/ASA pilots to talk w/ Grinstein

Welcome to Flightinfo.com

  • Register now and join the discussion
  • Modern secure site, no 3rd party apps required
  • Invite your friends
  • Share the passion of aviation
  • Friendliest aviation community on the web
Hey guys/gals it is all about $$$$$$. ALpa is a self serving organization who loves to pit one pilot group against another. Think about it for a second, more main line jobs or higher pay = more money for Alpa. Why would Alpa support anything that is going to take money out of thier pockets? Thus the reason why they have fought the talks with Delta.

Most Delta line guys want to support Delta with concessions to help ensure future job security. Those guys at Eastern and Pan Am did not have a choice. Even though some of the tactics employed by the company are not the greatest, the company is fighting for survival. Alpa is like a leech, they need the blood of any organization to survive and the less blood a donor has the less blood the leech recieves until the donor is DEAD! Alpa has it's place in our industry, but telling a company how to run the organization is not one of them.

Lastly, the last I checked the individual pilots in any group are not the ones making the decisions. So why bash another group for things way beyond thier control? It was not the Comair Line guy that decided not to hire furloughed pilots without resigning thier senority # nor is it an ASA pilot who decides how many RJ's are on property. Let's not forget once we make it to the big league's were most of us came from and how we through blood, sweat, tears and sacrifice worked towards that goal of building time so we can take those progressive steps in our career.
 
michael707767 said:
You are so full of crap its incredible. This is not a negotiation, so there is nothing ALPA can do about it. If the pilots of CMR and ASA want to sit down with GG and suggest some ways that money can be saved, great. This is not about a negotiation, or any deal that has already been cut. Stop posting BS like that, or provide proof.
Michael : A merger is not negotiation? The Delta MEC and ALPA could no nothing about it?

Would you like me to post the link to the letters Woerth signed explaining that the DCI MEC's were not permitted to engage Delta Management? I can, or you may look them up on the RJDC web site.

At least I pointed out that my second post was an opinion. But yes, my opinion is that if Malone and Grinstein invite ASA, or Comair, to the table - it does not mean that ASA and Comair are invited to dinner. It probably means they are dinner.

As far as providing proof goes, the RJDC is getting it together for presentation to the Court. Is that a sufficient standard of "proof" for you?
 
Last edited:
MetroSheriff said:
Hey Fins, quick....look over on the grassy knoll, it's Grinstein, Malone, and Woerth.

And they are all out to get YOU!!!!
If those three are together talking about scope, yes, they are out to get me, and you and the rest of the ALPA members who perform flying within the Delta system.

Please post for me what scope Malone, Woerth and Delta management, have negotiated that has worked..... What have they done to secure the employment of Delta pilots?

With their track record in negotiations, I am concerned.
 
~~~^~~~ said:
Michael : A merger is not negotiation? The Delta MEC and ALPA could no nothing about it?

As far as providing proof goes, the RJDC is getting it together for presentation to the Court. Is that a sufficient standard of "proof" for you?
If GG agrees to merge ASA and CMR, yes there would be a negotiation. Sitting down to talk about ideas to save money, including discussing the possibility of a merger, is not a negotiation.

You stated " That means, if Delta and the DCI MEC's are talking it is just preliminary moves to get a deal already negotiated by the Delta pilots ratified on DCI property"

Provide proof of this statement. You can't because nothing has been negotiated yet.
 
This is in response to a letter sent to GG by the ASA/CA MECs. The letter was posted in the last MEC news letter. According to the newsletter the proposal is well thought out and presents proposed solutions to many merger issues, which the MECs want to present in detail in person. I don't think the MECs were unprepared, but were probably not expecting a favorable response. Now they can put an actual presentation together. I do agree though, that this may be the result of movement in that direction already proposed by DALPA.
 
Everyone I have talked to over here at mainline thinks there shoud be a merger between ASA/Comair---it seems logical. Some of those costs savings could help the overall picture. Maybe they have other plans.....


Bye Bye--General Lee
 
surplus1 said:
Why should Comair pilots fall over themselves supporting DAL mainline pilots when the only thing that Delta mainline pilots have done is attempt to prevent Comair growth and transfer Comair aircraft to Delta?
Wil:
Do you even read what you type. Your BS is even funnier here than it is on the ALPA national forum! Who has had all the growth over the past 3 years??
Not to mention, did my post say anything about bumping Comair pilots out of thier jobs. Just some nice support like ASA did for furloughed mainline pilots would have been nice. I see where Comair stands!
Again, have a nice day Wil!
737
 
737 Pylt said:
Wil:
Do you even read what you type. Your BS is even funnier here than it is on the ALPA national forum!
Yes, I read what I type and I also read what you type. I'm pleased that you enjoy the humor of my posts.

Who has had all the growth over the past 3 years??
And your point is? Are we expected to request your permission to grow? If I were you I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for that to happen. Should we feel "guilty" because we have grown? You'd like that wouldn't you? Are you prepared to feel "guilty" when you grow and we do not? Do you feel "guilty" when your leaders attempt to stop our growth? You don't? Geeez, I'm surprised and dissapointed.

Tell you what, I'll cry in my beer over your problems as soon as you agree to cry in your beer over mine. Meanwhile, I think it's time that you realize that you only think you're a privileged class, you really aren't.

Not to mention, did my post say anything about bumping Comair pilots out of thier jobs. Just some nice support like ASA did for furloughed mainline pilots would have been nice. I see where Comair stands!
Again, have a nice day Wil!
737
Comair stands the same place that you stand. Your interests are more important to you than mine; my interests are more important to me than yours. If you don't comprehend that, I can't help you.

If you would like to send a thankyougram to ASA management for its help it will not upset me. If you want to send a nastygram to CMR management because it didn't, I have no problem with that either.

I don't hold you responsible for what your management does, only for what you you do. Grind your axe with the right party. Your group doesn't get upset over my problems and I don't get upset over yours. In other words, we work for separate airlines. That is what you wanted and that is what you got. Quit complaining about the consequences.

You have a nice day too, sir.
 
Surplus1,


I think you have forgotten what your purpose here at Delta is. Comair and ASA FEED mainline, and also offer some point to point flights. But, your primary responsibility is to feed us at the hubs. You are second on the totempole. Sorry about that, but it is true. After 9-11 you guys did a great job "backing us up"--by filling in the gaps and expanding like a wildfire in California. Now, the passengers are actually back---and it is time for us to come back in numbers and with the growth. You don't want to give up your growth---and that is obvious. Some of you would like to bring larger aircraft down to the regional level---and that would bring down the benefits and pay also. Guys like Furloughedagain can see the big picture--and others can't.

Bye Bye--General Lee
 
General Lee said:
Surplus1,

I think you have forgotten what your purpose here at Delta is. Comair and ASA FEED mainline, and also offer some point to point flights. But, your primary responsibility is to feed us at the hubs. You are second on the totempole. Sorry about that, but it is true.

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,
You, nor any other Delta pilot will tell me what my purpose is. You will not tell me what my responsibility is. I will not accept being "second on the totempole". Sorry about that General, but that is the truth.
 
General Lee said:
Surplus1,


I think you have forgotten what your purpose here at Delta is. Comair and ASA FEED mainline, and also offer some point to point flights. But, your primary responsibility is to feed us at the hubs. You are second on the totempole. Sorry about that, but it is true. After 9-11 you guys did a great job "backing us up"--by filling in the gaps and expanding like a wildfire in California. Now, the passengers are actually back---and it is time for us to come back in numbers and with the growth. You don't want to give up your growth---and that is obvious. Some of you would like to bring larger aircraft down to the regional level---and that would bring down the benefits and pay also. Guys like Furloughedagain can see the big picture--and others can't.

Bye Bye--General Lee
AGAIN, I challenge you to tell me , in your opinion, the difference in what an RJ does and a 737 does for Delta.

They both FEED THE HUB. plain and simple. The 737 does not sit at the gate waiting on pax to get off RJs no more than an RJ sits at the gate waiting on pax to get off 737s.

They both wait for a mix of local pax and pax that have flown in on RJs, 737s, MD88s, 767s, ect. ect....

DCI has around 350 DEPARTURES a day at CVG. Who "feeds" those flights? I quess they all go out empty and then return with pax that only connect to mainline.

I know you know this. When you say we only "feed" mainline, you sound like our anti-labor mgt.
 
Last edited:
Just for the record, GG never said that he would talk to our MECs. In fact, his response was more of a blow off than anything. He refered them to Koshlap (spelling?), and stated he agreed with Buttrells response as to the reasons that they would not consider a merger.

I don't know where our MECs got the idea from. He stated in a news conf. this morn that a merger was out of the question.
 
General Lee said:
Surplus1,


I think you have forgotten what your purpose here at Delta is. Comair and ASA FEED mainline, and also offer some point to point flights. But, your primary responsibility is to feed us at the hubs. You are second on the totempole. Sorry about that, but it is true. After 9-11 you guys did a great job "backing us up"--by filling in the gaps and expanding like a wildfire in California. Now, the passengers are actually back---and it is time for us to come back in numbers and with the growth. You don't want to give up your growth---and that is obvious. Some of you would like to bring larger aircraft down to the regional level---and that would bring down the benefits and pay also. Guys like Furloughedagain can see the big picture--and others can't.

Bye Bye--General Lee
For once, I think the General is right. I too work at a regional (not ASA or Comair) and I would like to see nothing more than our mainline have some solid growth. When they grow, we grow. Several years ago, our mainline partner took over many of our routes because they saw that we had departures every half hour that were full. They soon realized that a full 30 seat airplane didn't translate into a full 737 so eventually we got the routes back, but my point is we were put in to test the waters and the demand was there. If we get to a point where we are pushed to capacity, thats when mainline should come in and put their planes on that route. They should and do use us as test flights. Mainline can put a 50 seat RJ into a market and see if it sticks. If it turns out to be a high demand for our services in that market, than mainline should put there planes on those routes. If the demand only calls for a 50 seat RJ, than we can keep those routes.

Solid growth at mainline means solid growth at our company and better opportunities for me in the future
 
OK, I'll try this in S L O W M O T I O N !!!

surplus1 said:
Yes, I read what I type
It's obvious you don'!

surplus1 said:
Tell you what, I'll cry in my beer over your problems as soon as you agree to cry in your beer over mine. Meanwhile, I think it's time that you realize that you only think you're a privileged class, you really aren't.
Don't waste perfectly good beer by crying over it. Can you please explain wher I said I thought I was a privileged class?? Again DO YOU READ WHAT YOU TYPE?? OBVIOUSLY NOT!!


surplus1 said:
Comair stands the same place that you stand. Your interests are more important to you than mine; my interests are more important to me than yours. If you don't comprehend that, I can't help you.
I have no problem there, we agree on that!

surplus1 said:
If you would like to send a thankyougram to ASA management for its help it will not upset me. If you want to send a nastygram to CMR management because it didn't, I have no problem with that either.
My only point here was that the ASA MEC supported the hiring of furloughed pilots (without having to resign seniority) while YOUR MEC did not!
I'll not waste my time on writing letters, this is more amusing.

surplus1 said:
I don't hold you responsible for what your management does, only for what you you do. Grind your axe with the right party. Your group doesn't get upset over my problems and I don't get upset over yours. In other words, we work for separate airlines. That is what you wanted and that is what you got. Quit complaining about the consequences..
Again Wil, the point is that the regionals grew at the expense of the majors. Hey when we get hired at an airline, we know this thing goes in cycles, always has, now traffic is back, and the flying needs to return to mainline. Even our wonderful CEO admits Leo over did it with the usage of rj's on long flights. I know that the rj has its place, however, its not on a 4 hour leg!


surplus1 said:
You have a nice day too, sir..
I will,
and again,
Have a nice day Wil.
737
 
General Lee said:
Surplus1,
I think you have forgotten what your purpose here at Delta is. Comair and ASA FEED mainline, and also offer some point to point flights. But, your primary responsibility is to feed us at the hubs.
General, that is your opinion and the mantra of your group. It is presumptious and specious. Otherwise, it has little to do with reality. If your company had created my little airline you might have a point, but the fact is it didn't. You bought us, but you didn't create us.

Given the fact that we carried a higher percentage of our own passengers vs those "connecting" to your airplanes before you bought us and, to the best of my knowledge, we still do (60/40 roughly), there is considerable question as to who feeds whom. Realistically, that is all irrelevant.

We don't feed you and you don't feed us. We operate in different markets. That doesn't mean we go to different airports. It means that you fly between points and at times when the market (supply of passengers) warrants the size aircraft that your company operates. We operate between airports and at times when the supply of passengers matches the capacity of our equipment. The equation is not about "feed", it is about having the right size equipment for any existing market. Frequency is also a factor in serving a particular market. The customer, who pays your salary and mine, prefers 4 RJ flights between two points to one 737 flight. You and I don't decide that either, market forces do.

Although I understand why you would like to be the determinant of who we are, why we exist and what we should or should not do, the truth is you aren't. You can make yourself feel good with the illusion but it has no impact on reality. The market, not Delta pilots, not the Delta MEC and not ALPA, is what determines where we go, how often we do it and how many of these pesky little airplanes that we fly will be in the fleet. If you can reach that understanding instead of worrying about who is first or second on your fictional totem pole. It's not about your ego or mine, it's about producing revenue that exceeds expenses. At this point we are doing that and you are not. This isn't rocket science, General.

You are second on the totempole. Sorry about that, but it is true. After 9-11 you guys did a great job "backing us up"--by filling in the gaps and expanding like a wildfire in California.
I, and I think most of my peers, are fully aware that Delta's core business is the mainline. We really don't have a problem with that, and we're not nearly as concerned about the image of who is where on and imaginary totempole. Totem poles are related only to your egos and really have nothing to do with Delta's business. If you want to be first on the totempole, that's OK with us. All of "DCI" is only half your size. If you wan't to see yourself as "king of the hill", that's allright, it has nothing to do with how many airplanes of what size the company operates, and nothing to do with who flys them.

We haven't done any better job of "backing you up" since 9-11 than we did before 9-11. We were not backing you up then and we are not backing you up now. That thought process is just one more of your illusions. We have a different market, that's all. 9/11 did create a big change in the supply of passengers in many markets. Unfortunately for you, and fortunately for us, that market change redered a lot of your size aircraft economically unfeasible between a number of points, including the company's hubs. The supply of your product exceeded the demand for service. That is why we grew and you shrunk. This is a business General. It's purpose is to make money for the investors. Neither one of us exists so that we can enjoy flying airplanes of our preference. That's another thing that you folks seem to have difficulty in grasping.

The Company has to be able to operate the right size aircraft on each of its routes. You should have no role in deciding what that is and neither should we. When that aircraft is of a size allocated to you, it will operate on that route and you will fly it. When the appropriate size is an aircraft allocated to us it will operate on that route and we will fly it. I say again, it's not rocket science.

Your real problem isn't what aircraft is the right size and I know that. Your problem is that you resent the fact that we are flying the smaller jets because you think you should be doing it instead. When you attempt to make that happen, at our expense, that's when we come to a parting of the ways.

Now, the passengers are actually back---and it is time for us to come back in numbers and with the growth. You don't want to give up your growth---and that is obvious.
I'm glad the passengers are coming back and hope their number continues to increase. When that calls for the use of one of your aircraft on a given route, we have no problem with that. If the Company can make more money between A/B with the 737 than the CR7, use the 737. If that need requires 100 more 737s that's just fine. We have no objection to your growing and never have, that attitude is your bag.

You are the ones that object to our growth and you are the ones that consistently attempt to stop it. We object to that because it is artificial. Of course we would like to continue to grow, just as you would. The difference is that we are not trying to prevent your growth, we are willing to live with the dictates of the market. You are doing the opposite. You seek to prevent our growth regardless of the market. That we are unwilling to accept. Additionally, we think it's kind of dense.

Some of you would like to bring larger aircraft down to the regional level---and that would bring down the benefits and pay also.
Bye Bye--General Lee
We have made no effort to bring larger aircraft down to the regional level. Up to now, that is a false allegation and represents only your fears. On the other hand, you are actively engaged in attempting to bring our small aircraft into your tent and without us. If you continue to do that, eventually you will cause what you fear. In other words you will wind up forcing us to vie with you for the larger aircraft, just as you are now vying with us for the small aircraft that we fly. If you're really worried about bringing down the pay and benefits, stop trying to get the samll aircraft.

The most simple solution to all of this is for you to stay on your side of the fence and we will stay on our side. You fly the big airplanes, we fly the small ones. Don't tell us how many little planes we should have and we wont tell you how many big planes you should have. Let the market decide. Then we can all live happily ever after.

The fence is at 70 seats. It's an arbitrary line, but we did not contest it so we can accept it. You have crossed that line by attempting to move the fence to 50-seats and limit the number of 70-seaters, after the fact. That is unacceptable and will continue to be. If you continue to pursue that course of action it will result in attempts by us to move the fence to 100 seats. That's not something we want to do, it is something your actions may force us to do. If that should happen, the war we're in now will look like a grade school spitting contest compared to the war that will come. As soon as you give up your efforts to restrict the 70-seaters, the conflict will go away.

You've heard this before time and again and I have heard your story time and again. Nothing has changed. Now, you can go hug the totempole and worry about your position on it or you can get real and deal with the issues. I don't believe in totempoles, they are primitive symbols of mythical beliefs.
 

Latest resources

Back
Top Bottom