CMR/ASA pilots to talk w/ Grinstein

[surplus1]

My only point here was that the ASA MEC supported the hiring of furloughed pilots (without having to resign seniority) while YOUR MEC did not!

That may be your point but your point is not accurate. The ASA MEC did nothing to promote the hiring of your furloughed pilots. It simply did not object to a management decision. If Comair management had made the same decision, the CMR MEC would not have objected either. We simply had no reason to fall on our sword to make that happen. This is a dead horse.

Again Wil, the point is that the regionals grew at the expense of the majors. Hey when we get hired at an airline, we know this thing goes in cycles, always has, now traffic is back, and the flying needs to return to mainline. Even our wonderful CEO admits Leo over did it with the usage of rj's on long flights. I know that the rj has its place, however, its not on a 4 hour leg!

Again, your "point" is in left field. The regionals did not grow at the expense of the majors. Your inability to understand market forces produces this erroneous assumption. We both grow or shrink dependent solely upon the needs of the given market. I'm sorry your side shrank, but trying to make the regionals your scapegoat because you don't want to face reality is your problem.

If and when the company decides that the stage lengths should be changed, it will change them and we will live with that. It is not your responsibility to make that determination. If traffic is back and it warrants a change in equipment from an RJ to a 737, that's OK with us and we will live with that. Again, market forces and management will make that decison, not you. If the company buys you 100 new 737s tomorrow, we'll be happy for you. If they buy us 100 new CR7s will you be happy for us?

Why is it so difficult for you all to understand that the business does not revolve around your desires of what you should fly,when you should fly it or where you should fly it? Since you know "this thing" runs in cycles, accept the fact that your side of the fence is on a down cycle and ours is on an up cylcle. When the cycle changes, you may grow again and we may shrink. You don't control the cycles and neither do we. Quit trying to artificailly manipulate them to your benefit.

You know what ... as soon as you fellas stop trying to be the CEO and run the company things will get better for you. Your job is the same as mine, to fly airplanes allocated to our respective divisions of the company. Stop trying to run the business;that's way above your pay grade.

All the best.

 

[737 Pylt]

you just don't get it!

Since you know "this thing" runs in cycles, accept the fact that your side of the fence is on a down cycle and ours is on an up cylcle. When the cycle changes, you may grow again and we may shrink. You don't control the cycles and neither do we. Quit trying to artificailly manipulate them to your benefit.


All the best.

DOWN CYCLE?? YGTBSM!!!

DAL is now flying more passengers than the summer of 2001 (the busiest season in aviation history) and you say that it is on a down cycle! Every expert out there is telling us the recession is over, more people are flying now more than ever. People are getting bumped off flights (my last 4 day trip, I counted only 5 empty seats), and load factors are skyrocketing, and you say that we are on a down cycle??
It just proves my point you are not reading what you type Wil!
Any credibility you might have had was just flushed with that statement!
Have a nice day!
737

 

[MedFlyer]

DOWN CYCLE?? YGTBSM!!!

DAL is now flying more passengers than the summer of 2001 (the busiest season in aviation history) and you say that it is on a down cycle! Every expert out there is telling us the recession is over, more people are flying now more than ever. People are getting bumped off flights (my last 4 day trip, I counted only 5 empty seats), and load factors are skyrocketing, and you say that we are on a down cycle??
It just proves my point you are not reading what you type Wil!
Any credibility you might have had was just flushed with that statement!
Have a nice day!
737

Sorry, but you kind of ruined your own credibility by posting false information. The summer of 2001 was NOT the busiest season in aviation for DL. DL's traffic was already sliding in 2001....the summer of 2000 was the pinnacle for DL.

Second, while the passengers are coming back, yields are still at record lows. In fact, on most routes, people are paying less today than they did at the height of the recession 2-3 years ago. So in terms of yields, we are still in down cycle which is more of a permanent shift than a cycle.

 

[surplus1]

DOWN CYCLE?? YGTBSM!!!

DAL is now flying more passengers than the summer of 2001 (the busiest season in aviation history) and you say that it is on a down cycle! Every expert out there is telling us the recession is over, more people are flying now more than ever. People are getting bumped off flights (my last 4 day trip, I counted only 5 empty seats), and load factors are skyrocketing, and you say that we are on a down cycle??
It just proves my point you are not reading what you type Wil!
Any credibility you might have had was just flushed with that statement!
Have a nice day!
737

My friend if you want to call what's happening at Delta an up cycle, that's ok with me. The record losses posted every quarter, most recent 312 billions, would appear to indicate otherwise. The number of passengers flying have increased, but the revenue they produce has declined and costs are out of control. Your expenses exceed your income and there is no end in sight. Now if you see that as a rosy picture, it is not my credibility that we need to worry about, it is your understanding of the process.

You seem to think that I am anti-Delta. Well, I'm not. I agree that I'm not very bright but I have figured out that Delta owns the company I work for. As Delta goes, so do we. I have no stake in seeing Delta fail, in fact the exact opposite is true.

What all of you folks with the 737s need to do is understand that the industry has changed. I don't like the changes any more than you do, but they are there and do not seem to be going away. The glory days of yesterday when you could demand and get whatever you wanted are a thing of the past. The problem you have is refered to as "denial". You won't accept that it is not going to return to the "good old days". The company has to come up with a new business plan and they are trying. You and your group have to change your way of thinking. Like it or not you have to become a part of that plan, help to make it work and pray to whomever you like that they get it right. If they don't, this company won't make it.

That is more than a down cycle, it's a major sea change. Either we trim the ship for this weather or it will founder. Right now, you are a major liability and that is why the company is demanding the concessions. The serious people in your pilot group recognize that you have to make changes and they are making good proposals. When it's settled it's going to hurt but there simply is no choice.

Today the company deferred a number of aircraft deliveries. That's not good for pilots but it is necessary. If the revenue was there to make those new aircraft profitable the deliveries would not have been defered.

I'm not asking you to be happy about any of this but I don't understand why you seem to have a chip on your shoulder. We are in the same boat and we need to row in the same direction. Rowing in circles will solve nothing.

Take care.

 

[737 Pylt]

Sorry, but you kind of ruined your own credibility by posting false information. The summer of 2001 was NOT the busiest season in aviation for DL. DL's traffic was already sliding in 2001....the summer of 2000 was the pinnacle for DL.

OK, I'm wrong about the year, but not about load factors, and that is the issue I have with Wil. Fact remains, we are still having "record load factors." and transporting those record load factors in regional jets! Its time to start replacing 10 flights a day where there are rj's and putting on some MD88's and 737's

Second, while the passengers are coming back, yields are still at record lows.

I never mentioned yeilds. But while you're on the subject, maybe you can enlighten us why its $20 cheaper to fly on Song NYC-MIA than it is to take Greyhound??

 

[Palerider957]

I never mentioned yeilds. But while you're on the subject, maybe you can enlighten us why its $20 cheaper to fly on Song NYC-MIA than it is to take Greyhound??[/QUOTE]


Simple....because Greyhound has more pricing power then Delta Airlines...easy enough?

How many times does load factor vs. yield have to be explained on these boards?

 

[InclusiveScope]

Simple....because Greyhound has more pricing power then Delta Airlines...easy enough?

How many times does load factor vs. yield have to be explained on these boards?

Well said Palerider. These guys still think load factor translates into profit. I am convinced the average Delta pilot looks back from the cockpit to determine profitablilty. Never mind that 30 or so passengers are non-revs and many of the revenue passengers aren't paying enough to operate the flight. These guys need a lesson in Econ 101

 

[InclusiveScope]

I never mentioned yeilds. But while you're on the subject, maybe you can enlighten us why its $20 cheaper to fly on Song NYC-MIA than it is to take Greyhound??

737 Pylt, I think you just answered your own question. Tell me again about the load factor with fares lower than Greyhound....

 

[P38JLightning]

loads v/s yields, etc

Not trying to speak for 737 pylt, but IMO the fact that sometimes its cheaper to fly song than greyhound doesn't mean song can't possibly make money. I think Song set its prices to make a profit, but they need a certain high yield factor. its also cleaper to fly SWA than greyhound on some routes, and SWA is profitable because they are packed to the gills.

Of course Inclusive Scope is right too, simply being full doesn't mean being profitable. In fact I remember an article fro a couple years back (featuring Continental if I recall, but it applies to everyone) who'se point was (especially if you oversell or overbook) that anything beyond about an 85% company wide load factor gets you into the "region of reverse command" whereby you start losing more money the higher the load factor.

Now obviously you want an exact 100% on any one given flight, but if your system wide loads are, say 95%, despite the fact that some of your flights are only half full, or mostly empty, basically repositioning flights, etc, then the only way you are 95% system wide is you have a ton of 100%+ flights and droves of pax you have to pay to not fly. Overselling can be a profitable endevour if its done in moderation, but if done on a lot of flights where a lot of the no shows actually show it gets expensive.

Song has a low CASM and the ability to compete and be profitable, and in fact are profitable sometimes, but they are dependant on loads to be high. The 75 is efficient with a lot of seats to spread the costs around, minimal flight attendants, quicker turns, higher utilization and soon significantly lower crew costs. Plus miles on a world wide network. A much better perk than any of the LCCs. They're still new, without the brand recognition of SWA or AT in Atlanta or even JB in NYC. But just because sometimes a ticket is cheaper than the bus doesn't mean they can't make a profit. Otherwise SWA would have liquidated 30 years ago.

 

[cosmotheassman]

It seems everyone is losing sight of the big picture and, it is the company's fault for this happening. Everyone should be working as a team for the greater good. Delta having multiple companies with multiple senority lists within itself was a bad choice. It only puts you guys against each other whether it's good times or bad times. The only solution was for Delta to be one entity; now it is a victim of its own creation. And, I believe, it got too big for its own shorts. I believe if Delta needs to cut back, it should be on everyone proportional to its own size.(and if profits are being made, everyone should benefit proportionally)

This is what I don't understand: A first year Delta F/O makes 66% more an hour than an ASA FO. Does Delta mainline do greater than 60% of the total flying for Delta? I don't think they should make the same but, when you get past 5th year it is ridiculous how much difference in pay for two people working for the same company doing the same job.
Just my 2 cents...

 

[Vortilon]

Cosmo,

Since you are currently in the corporate world, would you like it if the corporate career goal jobs like flying a G-500, Global Express or BBJ paid the same as your Hawker job? After all, its the same job....

 

[cosmotheassman]

If I remember correctly, I stated that I don't believe the pay should be the same. I just think it is unfair how much difference there is. I think flying 50 more passengers does not necessitate an additional $100 per hour from the regional standpoint. However, I do think getting paid $125 hour is a fair rate for a 5 year FO on an MD80. But, I do not think flying 50 passengers less than an MD80 deserves $19 hour either. --Bottom line: I think the regionals are underpaid for the comparative work they do.

I do believe you should get more money the larger the airplane; however, it has gotten out of control when you're getting paid $320 per hour. Why does a 777 captain deserve $60 more an hour than a 767 captain? Just trying to find the logic because there is none from what I see...

By the way, I like your beavis/butthead pic...

 

[Vortilon]

Cosmo,

When it comes to pay in this business you get what you negotiate and it doesn't have much to do what is "fair". At one point DL & UAL thought their heavy Captains were worth every bit of that $300/hr, but now they can't pay it so they have to negotiate something else. Maybe someday if the companies are uber-profitable it can happen again but by that time considering inflation it will be like 150/hr today.

To me, you can never pay a pilot too much and I'll never apologize for what I make. Some day if I ever make $300/hr I'll be making up for my years at $13/hr and time spent on unemployment. We all sacrifice too much in this business for a long time and its generally well deserved and earned by the time you actually get to make some money for a change.

(Does your license plate say Assman?!)

 

[wil]

737 PYLT- I don't think I posted on this thread. Of course, on my days off I do like to hit the bottle! Anyway, I want to see the furloughs flying again and Delta to get financially healthy. Cheers, Wil