Class Action Lawsuits – Is It Time??!!

[Draginass]

Ok...I'm a little confused here. Many of you have called the old guys greedy because they want to hang around and earn more money. Then you rationalize your statement by saying that they are costing you money. Isn't that greedy on your part? I guess there is going to be a greedy party here...just this time the old guys beat the young ones.

So because someone wants to pick your pocket, and you object, you're greedy??? His point was this is a change from the status quo rules that everyone lived under and planned for. It IS clearly a rich windfall for the older crowd, both in terms of quality of worklife and pay . . . . and that's coming right out of the future pockets of the junior pilots.

They can stay now till 65, but don't expect much respect from the younger guys.

 

[737ski]

As for the victory dance, the one thing I don't want to hear about is, how can you withdraw out of your 401k before mandatory retirement, use your sick pay, & your vacation to manipulate your schedule, etc., to get to 65 or retire at 60... BTW, I don't want to see your toys (2nd house, planes, boats, xx wives, etc.), until you want to talk about how current F/O's will be affected & compensated.

This is a great place to work, but a few greedy folks can spoil a good thing. Believe me, you are now on my bid avoid.

Rant off.

 

[Andy]

Honestly, can't we all just get along?

For the record, I was against Age 65.

That being said, it is now law, and unlikely to be changed, at least in the near future.

No one said life was fair. Things change, sometimes for the better and sometimes for worse. It is called LIFE. You have 4 options:

1. Accept reality and deal with it. (move on)
2. Fight it (a losing proposition, in my opinion.)
3. Complain and whine endlessly.
4. Deny reality.

It is time to move on and deal with other pressing issues in the industry, the ones where we can make a difference, and improve the pay and working conditions and contracts.

BTW, Merry Christmas, Happy and healthy New Year, and Happy Holidays to all!

Very nice post.

I fought 65 the best I knew how. I wrote to all of the elected officials; called several offices, etc. Tried organizing grass roots campaigns; even passed out blakey's e-mail/fax/phone number.

It's done. We lost. Pressing for a lawsuit at this time would not be productive.

I'm not asking anyone who opposes 65 to accept this; I'm merely asking them to channel their efforts toward battles that can be won. ALPA betrayed the majority and has created more dissention among the ranks than any divisive management scheme could ever have done. Our elected officials at national AND the MECs betrayed the majority. It wasn't just prater (POS) that betrayed the majority; it was an almost unanimous vote at national to pursue this course of action.
Geez, I feel like an idiot to have supported the union. What a waste of 1.95%. I'm now more trusting of United management than ALPA.

I just hope that once the lowered payscales as a result of this (this change WILL result in leaner pilot contracts) are enough to fire up people when the next age change gets pushed. I haven't been able to verify this, but I read where someone said that the JAA (Europe) has established a committe to increase pilot age to 70. Perhaps by the time that the next push for change rolls around, pilots will learn that the decreased wages more than offset additional years of work. It's coming. Soon.
Rather than looking in the rear view mirror, prepare for the battles ahead.

 

[LJDRVR]

One thing's for certain. Getting all angry and calling each other names on FI doesn't do a thing.

ALPA National got a blank check from the MEC's on age 65. At my airline the resolution said basically "do what you want". No kidding. ALPA leadership acted in their own best interests.

So now, the baby-boomers, the same generation that brought you the B-scale and RJ's, gets to have their cake and eat it too. Junior pilots will lose huge chunks of their career earnings. (3-year delay on upgrade = upwards of 250K. Let's figure 200K in cash, plus 50 in 401K. 50K invested for 25 years = pretty close to a million dollars.) How much of that are you going to make up in five years? What's not included is lost career earnings. Do you think your employer is going to pay for this legislation?

HA!

"Sorry guys, but we can't increase your B-fund, you get to work an extra five years, so you're fine!"

"We don't have that much of an hourly increase available, our LTD and sick call costs are through the roof."

We can point fingers, but sooner or later we'll all be dealing with this contractually. Most will bitch and complain. At APA, there's a movement afoot to simply require those pilots planning on staying past sixty, to move to the bottom of the list.

In the meantime though, it's time we all got involved with our union. Pissed? Good! So am I. Clean house at your MEC/LEC if required and send Prater packing if you think that will help. You'd better pay attention though cause' here's what's coming next:

• Open Skies
• Certificate Standardization/Commonality

If we don't get our collective poo together, we're going to be replaced by green-card holders who will do our jobs for a third of what we make.

As far as class action lawsuits? Forget it fellas. No plaintiffs attorney in the country is going to take your case unless you pay up front. The legislation indemnifies the airlines and ALPA.

 

[Dude]

I love the responses from the "experts" on this board. There will be NO definitive data regarding the effects of this legilation until the first round of old farts retire at 65! Until then, this is useless rhetoric and speculation and that energy should be placed where it is needed.......back at your respective negotiating tables. This lightning rod issue is doing precisely what most companies want; it is dividing every pilot group out there. Not standing unified, right now, will have disasterous effects on our bargaining power in the upcoming years and your management knows it. Being an FO for a few more years isn't pleasant but what the hell am I going to do about it? Not much. You guys are bitching about scenarios that already exist. Albeit this legislation amplified it a bit, but those issues are a reality. Long upgrades, stagnation, eroded pay and benefits; come on, these are today's reality. Your chosen profession provides two guarantees. A PC every six months accompanied by a medical. It used to guarantee the retirement age of sixty, but I digress. Focus on where you are and what you have today, not a speculative and unforecastable tomorrow.

I will promise you this. Childish behavior and whining about how you were wronged will suck every fiber of credibility out of your arguments. EVERYONE in this industry has fallen on the sword at one time or another and this time, you're the bloody one. $hit happens.

 

[Andy]

Not standing unified, right now, will have disasterous effects on our bargaining power in the upcoming years and your management knows it.

That's the crux of the problem. The majority of the membership can no longer trust the union. There can be no unity with the current union.
This was a HUGE setback for unity.

 

[Vne]

Thank you very little Southwest. You have now replaced AA (with our B-scale) as the scurge of the industry.

No one can replace AA as the scurge of the industry ....No one.....ever.....

 

[charterpuke]

At every airline with a no-fly list, all F/Os should put any captain over 60 on their no-fly list!!

 

[SkiFishFly]

Don't waste your time and money on lawsuits. Only the lawyers will win (and pocket lots of your money).

Channel your energy into the union and at the bargaining table. FO pay rates need to come up before/at a greater percentage than CA rates to make up for the delay/loss of potential future earnings.

As someone posted - FOs did not lose actual income, we lost potential income. It was never guaranteed in any way, shape, or form. Lots of things can have a negative impact on projected or potential income - this just happens to be one of them.

 

[Jonny Sacko]

Yup, right with ya, SUE ALPA. FOR OUR LOST Potential. 5 year capt pay, at today's rate, with compounding.. The majority spoke against it. Where do I sign up?

 

[Mamma]

Ok...I'm a little confused here. Many of you have called the old guys greedy because they want to hang around and earn more money. Then you rationalize your statement by saying that they are costing you money. Isn't that greedy on your part? I guess there is going to be a greedy party here...just this time the old guys beat the young ones.

Hey Einstein,
The old guys have been beating the young guys forever. That is how a seniority based system works. Are you still a little confused? Here is where I have the complaint. You geezers say you want to stick around because you "love" flying and want to keep busy. The "young guys" want to make a living and support their families. That is the difference. The system was set up so you could retire at 60 and be OK. I know things have happened but I think if you managed your money well over the years you could retire just fine. If you have 3 wives and a host of other bad decisions that led you into forced servitude, then that is your fault. Oh, by the way:

http://commerce.senate.gov/public/i...ngs.Testimony&Hearing_ID=1581&Witness_ID=4478

 

[Mamma]

Don't waste your time and money on lawsuits. Only the lawyers will win (and pocket lots of your money).

Channel your energy into the union and at the bargaining table. FO pay rates need to come up before/at a greater percentage than CA rates to make up for the delay/loss of potential future earnings.

As someone posted - FOs did not lose actual income, we lost potential income. It was never guaranteed in any way, shape, or form. Lots of things can have a negative impact on projected or potential income - this just happens to be one of them.

File an ASAP report everytme you fly with a geezer and include this link. Tell the union this is not safe. ALPA leads the way in safety issues!

http://commerce.senate.gov/public/i...ngs.Testimony&Hearing_ID=1581&Witness_ID=4478

 

[capt. megadeth]

I would bet that a higher percentage of pilots will be working past 60 in 2 decades than will continue past 60 now.

DUH!!!

Of course we will....we will have no choice by then. 60 will be the new 55.

 

[whymeworry?]

No doubt, Capt rate will have to come down to pay for the FO rates that are going to go up. Fact is there are more FOs than Captains so the voting block will far exceed what the old farts want.

My suggestion to the negotiating committee is 90% of captain pay. All the contracts now have to be renegotiated. Want to stick around? Fine, but I'm not going to be the one financing your toys and your lifestyle.

 

[52560]

Hey Einstein,
The old guys have been beating the young guys forever. That is how a seniority based system works. Are you still a little confused? Here is where I have the complaint. You geezers say you want to stick around because you "love" flying and want to keep busy. The "young guys" want to make a living and support their families. That is the difference. The system was set up so you could retire at 60 and be OK. I know things have happened but I think if you managed your money well over the years you could retire just fine. If you have 3 wives and a host of other bad decisions that led you into forced servitude, then that is your fault. Oh, by the way:

http://commerce.senate.gov/public/i...ngs.Testimony&Hearing_ID=1581&Witness_ID=4478

Part of the reason this law got passed is because too many of you can't make a compelling argument to save your life. What are you trying to say here....all I got out of it was that you think I am an old geezer with three wives. Well, you are wrong on two accounts there. By the way, I didn't want to see this law passed. Believe it or not, I am on your side. But jeeze, no wonder this industry is going to hell in a hand basket. Too many idots open there mouths and let crap flow out! For those that can't truly do something good about it, shut the hell up so those that can make a legitmate argument can do so without you screwing up their cause.