Citationshares lets 30 go

[fischman]

...because seniority knows no fairness.

Did CS not furlough in inverse seniority order?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Any poster who flies and does not "manage" is a statistic waiting to happen. Crew resource management is as critical to flight safety as oxygen is to your brain cells. (if applicable)

B19, how can we take you seriously? You have such a disdain for flight crew. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to manage (Captain) a jet aircraft without or with passengers, and to make sure the operation is safe at all times? Cavu is one thing, but IFR, winter, contingencies, etc? You DO NOT HAVE A CLUE! (apparently.) Why the anti-flight crew attitude bee one niner? Without us, what would YOU have to manage?

Why be so condescending, and such a (hate to say it again but, well it is so appropo...) dooshbag?

First, because I don't believe in unions does not mean I'm anti-pilot. I've done more for fractional pilots than anybody on this board by my work on the rulemaking commitee. It was all in support of the regulations and the alignment with part 135. What have you contributed to YOUR industry?

I've never been condescending toward pilots, only unions and those mongers that believe that a union is the way to go.

Last but not least... pilots manage airplanes, not companies. Management runs companies, it is a different skill set. It's a lot tougher managing an entire company or department than it is one flight at a time where the majority of the logistics are already done for the pilot. (Ironically by procedures set up by.. you guessed it, company management).

Many pilots that try to step into the shoes of management can't cut it. Those that are successful can view it from both sides of the coin and are an effective asset to the company. I made the transition. Try walking in the shoes if you haven't and see how easy it is to be a target all day long when you are simply trying to do your job. Right now when times are tough is when it's time to step up to the plate.

My question to you and your union is, are you Manny Ramirez or A-Rod when it's all on the line? My guess is it will be the latter of the two, take the money and fail when it's needed most.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Did CS not furlough in inverse seniority order?

According to the post below, several took packages and the rest were furloughed as you state.

 

[fischman]

Seymour, I never feel like a moron, I've been far too successful in my endeavors standing up for pilots and the basic working employee over the years. What have you done Seymour, helped vote in a union? You've weakend the company Seymour.

I've made the effort and paid the price for stepping into management where I could make a difference. Have you?

Semore has been in the sandbox fighting for your freedom to be a raging jerk for the past couple of years. He has earned your respect. I suggest you show it.

 

[fischman]

I've never been condescending toward pilots, only unions and those mongers that believe that a union is the way to go.

REALLY??? Did you want me to go though all your post and quote the ones where you were condecending or offensive? :erm:

 

[B19 Flyer]

REALLY??? Did you want me to go though all your post and quote the ones where you were condecending or offensive? :erm:

Knock your socks off... and make sure you cut and paste the entire post, because they will always be around subjects such as union activity that I felt was unprofessional such as needless write-ups and other items that unions have and will prevent which hurt the professionalism of pilots.

I also want you to find a single post where I've said that pilots should not make a decent wage.

Go for it.

Also, don't forget to include all the posts that have been offensive to me.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Semore has been in the sandbox fighting for your freedom to be a raging jerk for the past couple of years. He has earned your respect. I suggest you show it.

My respect for those that serve in the military has been well represented and clearly stated on this board.

Because I despise the union concept and what it has done to the aviation industry doesn't make me a raging jerk.

To me the raging jerks are the ones who blackmail a company financially the way a union does. My points will all be made later this year when the freefall of the financial markets shatter the industry leading contract you currently enjoy. Perhaps you should be apologizing to him for you flying union where he currently doesn't?

Then, instead of you agreeing with me to "be careful what you ask for" you will be crying the blues :bawling: unable to believe that I was right in my opinion. The union will be slow to act and the cuts will be much deeper than you'll be happy with. Time will tell, but it will be the same as the legacy carriers of a few years ago. The days of the corporate jet as a perk is over for the short term until things change.

 

[Pervis]

Because I despise the union concept and what it has done to the aviation industry doesn't make me a raging jerk.

No it doesn't. Your very existance does. Most people like the idea of personal recognition for their positive traits. Then there are those like you who use whatever is easiest. After all, it's a lot easier being a raging jerk than a good person.

 

[Semore Butts]

What have you done Seymour, helped vote in a union? You've weakend the company Seymour.

No, I left a non-union fractional specifically to join a union shop. I has been clearly the right decision for me.


I've made the effort and paid the price for stepping into management where I could make a difference. Have you?

I've been an Army Officer for a span of 25 years of a 33 year career, 3 combat theatres, and military version of Chief Pilot for the last 10 years. Yeah, I think I've managed a thing or two.

I just have to laugh when you repeatedly refer to how tough management is, yet refuse to acknowledge the complexity of being a pilot.

How about trying to do both? Manage an entire unit of aviators and enlisted people, and fly the line as well. Haven't done that have ya "motor mouth"? Over what period of time?

You act so high and mighty, yet you don't acknowledge that anybody on this board has any knowledge about aviation but you?

I think your claim of Netjets contract collapsing within the next year is another clear testament of your inept management skills.

As manager of Semore Butts.

You're fired!

Your skills as a manager and union buster are substandard. To spread such consternation for entertainment is mentally unsound.

Yours words are not worthy of any further response other then "You're Fired".

 

[o2bflyn]

Last but not least... pilots manage airplanes, not companies. Management runs companies, it is a different skill set. It's a lot tougher managing an entire company or department than it is one flight at a time where the majority of the logistics are already done for the pilot. (Ironically by procedures set up by.. you guessed it, company management).

Many pilots that try to step into the shoes of management can't cut it. Those that are successful can view it from both sides of the coin and are an effective asset to the company. I made the transition. Try walking in the shoes if you haven't and see how easy it is to be a target all day long when you are simply trying to do your job. Right now when times are tough is when it's time to step up to the plate.

No sir, the successful management personel do not sit there and stroke their own ego on message boards.

Managing a jet and managing a company require the same basic skills. Communication, a good business mind, and the ability to execute and follow through. The rest is just semantics. As far as the logistics being already set up......do you honestly expect us think upper management sets up the logistics themselves. Come on, go pull someone else's legs, mine are long enough.

As far as being a target all day long. Try being sealed into a pressurized tube trying to explain to an owner why the procedures management set up failed. We all have our little problems. It is the little people that spend all day on message boards complaining about it.

I fear all you are is a person who thrives on Drama, you can't live without it. My suggestion to you is to check out the Soap Opera network for your drama fix.

Good Day, Sir!

 

[gunfyter]

Bob,

I can do your job better than you can.

More people will live and far less damage to property would result if we traded seats ...

...and I did your job than if you did mine.

Now go away and let the Real Men (the ones with "The Right Stuff" ) attend to their aviation careers.

 

[brokeflyer]

that I felt was unprofessional such as needless write-ups

If it's broke then it's broke....that's why we need the big bucks....it's a desciono making process that cannot be underestimated.

 

[DO-82 driver]

B19,

Apparently, Management at NJ is confident they can work through these tough time in conjunction WITH the Union.

Together, we will weather this storm and probably come out stronger on the other end.

I hope you aren't disappointed you weren't on our Management's list of people to call for advise. I don;t have a feeling NJ will be recruiting you anytime in the near future.

Someone like you has no business being part of a large scale, successful Management team like what we thankfully have here at NJ.

Basically....you're small peanuts.

 

[William Holiday]

If private jet use is slowing, It wasn't evident in S.FLA this past week. It was nothing but jet city with all kinds of burned out crews. Same goes for the west. NE looked down. Not sure about other regions.

 

[glasspilot]

Basically....you're small peanuts.

I guess we're ALL small peanuts compared to mighty NetJets...

 

[DO-82 driver]

I guess we're ALL small peanuts compared to mighty NetJets...

No....B-19 is, because he has all the answers on how to save the Fractional Industry.

 

[glasspilot]

Okay, I like NetJet guys...I really do.

Sometimes, some of the pilot group can come off as a tad elitist. I know that's not the whole group and I know that NetJets makes up the lions share of frac pilots and they do have a hard won contract.

Ya'll do have my respect and I have many friends over there. I wish you all the best. I suppose a certain part of me hopes for your utter demise...( simply to justify my passing on an interview several years back...), but most of me wants nothing but the best for every pilot trying to hammer out a living in these very tumultuous times. Good luck to all, enjoy the seasons! May '09 be better times....

GP

 

[gunfyter]

Okay, I like NetJet guys...I really do.

Sometimes, some of the pilot group can come off as a tad elitist. I know that's not the whole group and I know that NetJets makes up the lions share of frac pilots and they do have a hard won contract.

Glass,

You know what it is?

I don't think you were around here then ... unless you had a different screen name. There was a guy whose screen name was Wile E Coyote or something similar....

For several years while our pilots struggled to get our contract ... we were taunted on these boards and out on the road by people... from the other Fracs ...
Who even said ... whatever you guys get Kenn says he'll pay us $10K more... or Flex says we'll always be paid more than NJA or CS management says we'll always be the highest paid frac....

"Yeah ... that union really working for you guys huh?"

Thats what we heard and saw on this board. You could go back and read the posts here during 2003, 2004, and early 2005. They were brutal and vicious. Sadistic even.

And I know its not everyone of you ... and I think the time is past to let the naysayers have it ... for kicking us when we were down.

Thats what it is Glass... IMO. I am past it myself. I am wishing nothing but the best for all of us.

Its over ... now if you'll excuse me I have an appointment with the BMW dealership....

 

[gunfyter]

Yeah ... here is a sample thread featuring NJA bashing and a few posts by WileE Coyote circa 2003.

netjets pilot contract ..2 yrs & nada!

"...And the teamsters wonder why they can't get enough cards back from Flight Ops pilots to even start a vote. Their history with Netjets isn't exactly a selling point."​

I got blasted in that and a lot of other threads. Its all "water under the bridge" now though. Oh ... you won't see my posts ... I had them pulled... the War is over and some things were said in the heat of battle.

 

[BeeDubya]

According to the post below, several took packages and the rest were furloughed as you state.

"Several" being 6.

 

[BeeDubya]

I'm curious and this is not meant to sound smug BUT at the fracs who've furloughed I have a question. Did management approach the pilots ahead of time, enlist their support in cost saving measures and attempt to delay or stop any furloughs from happening? Or did they just pull the plug?

I've made up my mind, don't CONFUSE me with the facts!!!!! :nuts:

 

[steelersrule74]

I've made up my mind, don't CONFUSE me with the facts!!!!! :nuts:

tragically though my question was not rhetorical, we all know the facts. The vast majority of management view pilots as nothing more than a part of the inventory. nothing of real value, just a cost against the bottom line. These 'managers' have no issues with going right to employee cuts first. They have no creativity. They do not enlist crew members who are in fact not inventory, but the product - to work side by side in an effort to reduce costs and increase efficiency. The neither inspire loyalty nor lead crew members during tough financial times. They ensure the pilots at these companies are forced to look out for themselves and try to hoard every nickel they can to prepare for the day when they get the 'letter'.

Of course there are some here who will say that's what good leadership is. I would disagree. To those at CS, XO and anywhere else where the first thing they tried was furlough, you truly are the worst kind of management there is. You trample careers and ruin lives. The hatred and venom directed at these 'managers' is well earned. They are despicable.

 

[jonjuan]

tragically though my question was not rhetorical, we all know the facts. The vast majority of management view pilots as nothing more than a part of the inventory. nothing of real value, just a cost against the bottom line. These 'managers' have no issues with going right to employee cuts first. They have no creativity. They do not enlist crew members who are in fact not inventory, but the product - to work side by side in an effort to reduce costs and increase efficiency. The neither inspire loyalty nor lead crew members during tough financial times. They ensure the pilots at these companies are forced to look out for themselves and try to hoard every nickel they can to prepare for the day when they get the 'letter'.

Of course there are some here who will say that's what good leadership is. I would disagree. To those at CS, XO and anywhere else where the first thing they tried was furlough, you truly are the worst kind of management there is. You trample careers and ruin lives. The hatred and venom directed at these 'managers' is well earned. They are despicable.

Tell us - what are some of the things you are willing to give up (not negotiate) in your contract to keep management from furloughing pilots/laying off more back office employees (which is already happening at nja.)?
Aren't the pilots already as efficient as they could be? The facts are, current owners are leaving, card owners are slowing and not renewing, capacity is shrinking and net aircraft are negative. A furlough doesn't mean management at nja is incompetent. As santulli said, he never saw this degree of economic falloff coming as quick as it did. He'll simply have to adjust to the realities of the new economy/marketplace.

 

[steelersrule74]

i'm not sure where you get your info regarding NJA but it certainly doesn't appear accurate. In addition if you're asking solely about NJA why would you assume the pilots need to give anything up? I do agree that there does exist a time when a furlough is the only choice. If it's not the last choice however, then I do think management has failed.

 

[Diesel]

Tell us - what are some of the things you are willing to give up (not negotiate) in your contract to keep management from furloughing pilots/laying off more back office employees (which is already happening at nja.)?

Very nice and subtle but furloughs aren't going to happen. The others blinked and NJ is going to capitalize on the good PR not furloughing brings us.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Very nice and subtle but furloughs aren't going to happen. The others blinked and NJ is going to capitalize on the good PR not furloughing brings us.

Within the year.... :bawling:

 

[brokeflyer]

maybe they will furlough.....good thing we negotiated a good salary for the pilots. Think how bad it would be if they furloughed with the pay that management wanted to pay us.

Kinda funny how management NEVER takes a pay cut to save the company.

 

[Semore Butts]

B-19

You're Fired!

 

[Diesel]

Within the year.... :bawling:

Sorry nope....

But here is to ending your pathetic life within the above timeframe. Just finally do it, nobody likes you anyways.

 

[Fozzy]

:laugh:....:laugh: