CitationAir How Much Longer

[RCR5]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2181357#post2181357

Post #162

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2211923#post2211923

Post #53

"How bout them apples?"

What do all the pro union Lemmings that were spouting off in these other threads have to say now?

Now what do we do....other than keep paying our dues.....lol? Did you listen? Do you have a plan B or C? The day is here.

 

[pilotyip]

(our public forum which you are not a part of BTW)

It is a public form, if you don't want the public go private. Workd rather nicely. BTW ALPA was over30 years ago , IBT only a little over 10 years ago.

 

[G4dude]

Again with the name calling? So much for being "above that"...what a joke. I guess if you're going to live your sad little life as a spineless coward, it couldn't hurt too much to be a hypocrite too. Again, you should be very proud.

My point is, again, is that pro union posters don't have to fear reprisals. Anti union posters do. So you are really brave, knowing you DON"T have to worry about people defecating in your luggage or poisoning your dog or being hostile in the cockpit or leaving threatening messages on the phone. I DO have to worry about such things, because your side behaves like a spiteful 13 year old, with scab lists and such.

 

[G4dude]

Again with the name calling? So much for being "above that"...what a joke. I guess if you're going to live your sad little life as a spineless coward, it couldn't hurt too much to be a hypocrite too. Again, you should be very proud.

I am very proud that those who disagree with me do not have to worry about being put on a list for the rest of their career. Healthy disagreement is good. Coercion and intimidation are not.

 

[realityman]

My point is, again, is that pro union posters don't have to fear reprisals. Anti union posters do. So you are really brave, knowing you DON"T have to worry about people defecating in your luggage or poisoning your dog or being hostile in the cockpit or leaving threatening messages on the phone. I DO have to worry about such things, because your side behaves like a spiteful 13 year old, with scab lists and such.

Can you please point to me where this has EVER happened in our union?

Yes, yes, I'm sure it's happened at other unions. All the more reason why i keep telling folks such as yourself to go back and learn the history of our union, why it came to be, how it came to be, and what it has and has not done.

We've had some pilots do some stupid things, but those things you listed aren't them.

Despite what you may see on our own boards, I've never seen anyone be anything less than civil when discussing these things in person.

Don't buy into the stories and rumors. After all, prior to the integration I used to hear stories of NJI pilots who refused to share hotel/FBO vans with NJA crews. Are they true? And even if they are, should that mean I should paint all NJI pilots as stuck-up jerks?

 

[imacdog]

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2181357#post2181357

Post #162

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=2211923#post2211923

Post #53

"How bout them apples?"

What do all the pro union Lemmings that were spouting off in these other threads have to say now?

Now what do we do....other than keep paying our dues.....lol? Did you listen? Do you have a plan B or C? The day is here.

Is your union not working on a severance package for the soon to be furloughed pilots? At NJA the furloughed pilots got an additional two months of full pay and benefits after the furlough date. There's no way we would have gotten that much had we been non-union. Also, if you decide to move on to an airline, you may have a tough time if you're not ready to accept unionization as a part of the profession.

 

[7777]

Would they need to be working on a severance package if they were not on the property? All my friends working their have told me.....no.

 

[imacdog]

Would they need to be working on a severance package if they were not on the property? All my friends working their have told me.....no.

I'd think anyone who puts a minimal amount of rational thought would realize that if companies like NetJets, Flight Options, Delta Airlines, United Airlines, Continental Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Southwest Airlines, and the list goes on, can survive the pilots being in a union, and Citation Air couldn't, then Citation Air was in much worse shape than anyone gave them credit for.

 

[G4dude]

Can you please point to me where this has EVER happened in our union?

Yes, yes, I'm sure it's happened at other unions. All the more reason why i keep telling folks such as yourself to go back and learn the history of our union, why it came to be, how it came to be, and what it has and has not done.

We've had some pilots do some stupid things, but those things you listed aren't them.

Despite what you may see on our own boards, I've never seen anyone be anything less than civil when discussing these things in person.

Don't buy into the stories and rumors. After all, prior to the integration I used to hear stories of NJI pilots who refused to share hotel/FBO vans with NJA crews. Are they true? And even if they are, should that mean I should paint all NJI pilots as stuck-up jerks?

Excellent post, thanks! First, I have never heard of an NJI crew behaving that way, and if they did, shame on them. I do know one captain who was/is capable of doing something like that, but he is a problem child, an eccentric crank.
I agree with you about NJA's union. They have behaved fine, although some guys can be rather aggressive on the union board, which is why I post here. Overall, I am impressed with NJASAP, compared to what I saw at Eastern Airlines and other places.
By the way, when I get overheated and use the word "moron" and "union crazies", I am referring to strikers who would harass me if I crossed the picket line, or some of the FEW really hard core union guys I have met over the last few years here. But generally, I am having to somewhat revise my anti union feelings, as they relate to NJA's. So far, at least. Remember, I get really worried very easily because I have had such a terrible job history, with 11 companies going out of business on me, which makes me kinda paranoid about ANYTHING that might reduce my company's profits. Being a Capitalist Pig doesn't help either.

 

[PCL_128]

My point is, again, is that pro union posters don't have to fear reprisals.

What a joke! Many pilots have lost their jobs because they were too vocal on union matters. If anyone has to fear reprisals, it's the die-hard union supporters, not the scab wannabes.

 

[RCR5]

I'd think anyone who puts a minimal amount of rational thought would realize that if companies like NetJets, Flight Options, Delta Airlines, United Airlines, Continental Airlines, US Airways, Alaska Airlines, Southwest Airlines, and the list goes on, can survive the pilots being in a union, and Citation Air couldn't, then Citation Air was in much worse shape than anyone gave them credit for.

Doesn't take much thought to see Southwest is the only one that really has made it work. Netjets is in the crapper and how many of those other 121 carriers have filed chapter 11? Yeah sure, the unions had nothing to do with that......lol.

The numbers are small that believe Citation Air getting out of the fractional business had nothing to do with the union being voted in.....hell, everyone knows unions save companies money. BARF!!!!

This is exactly what I said would happen. We had a great company with management people that took care of us. Now the union comes on board and it is over.

I sincerely hope there is a way for BS to find out who voted for these turds and furlough all of them first. They certainly earned it.

 

[realityman]

So who, exactly, is responsible for all the companies that failed who didn't have unions?

Interesting, you'll probably tell me bad management, bad business model, the economy, etc.... But any company that has a union that's having trouble, well, it must be the union's fault.

 

[imacdog]

Doesn't take much thought to see Southwest is the only one that really has made it work. Netjets is in the crapper and how many of those other 121 carriers have filed chapter 11? Yeah sure, the unions had nothing to do with that......lol.

The numbers are small that believe Citation Air getting out of the fractional business had nothing to do with the union being voted in.....hell, everyone knows unions save companies money. BARF!!!!

This is exactly what I said would happen. We had a great company with management people that took care of us. Now the union comes on board and it is over.

I sincerely hope there is a way for BS to find out who voted for these turds and furlough all of them first. They certainly earned it.

So what exactly has changed for CA since the union was voted in? Be specific please.

 

[Smooth Cruz]

benefits, pay, senior management, business model, asap program, disciplinary procedures, pilot head count. these are most if the changes that have taken place since the vote, hope this answers your question

 

[Smooth Cruz]

to be more accurate, the pilot head count has not changed yet, but will start soon, estimate 100 in 2012, more in 2013

 

[gunfyter]

Netjets is in the crapper and how many of those other 121 carriers have filed chapter 11? Yeah sure, the unions had nothing to do with that......lol..

Not according to our management.... I doubt that management would ever lie But we'll see whenever the Annual Report comes out....

 

[pilotyip]

Is your union not working on a severance package for the soon to be furloughed pilots?

Severance package from IBT 747, dues out of your last pay check which included pay for unused vacation days, Is that the kind of severance package we are talking about? Been there, done that. BTW Still have my membership card and pay stub to remember the good ole days

 

[imacdog]

We're not talking about you, YIP.

 

[BentOver]

i think YIP really likes Unions and wishes he flew for one of the fracs.. I mean he's on this forum all the time, comments about companies and Unions he's not remotely a part of. And works in the cargo/charter field not even closely related to the fractional business..

Maybe a mild case of penis envy?

His comments about his union involvement 30 yrs. ago is comparing apples to oranges.... YIP, keep reminiscing about those ...what was the company name?.... Zanoff? days..... That sounds like a Russian freighter.....


Rather be furloughed from NJA with a #, and the thought that atleast I know what it's like to work for a real professional company... Than not have a number or never have made it.... Because even now, when I go to work for the rinky dink 135 I am at, I know that there is better out there. I know there is a company that treated it's employees very well.

I can thank being part of the Union for all of that. Because I know 100% what would have happened if we were non-union when Sokol took over. It reads like this, "say goodbye, you will no longer ever be returning because you have no recall rights because there is no contract". The rest would have been reduced back to pre-2005 wages. Captains would be back to making SIC wages as PIC. Fatigue would have been a thing of the past. Crew meals, hah..... Hotels,, it's La Quintas and Best Westerns for you pilots.... Say goodbye to breakfast.

 

[hogbody]

Solidarity

I'm not a CitationAir pilot, but I've read every word of this thread, and I have been in your shoes. First of all I wish you the very best. You guys are in a very tough situation, and no one can predict the outcome, so don't believe anybody who claims to know how this will end.

If you are tired of being treated as second class citizens, then stand together. Your very best hope for a positive outcome is to work with your union leadership and do as they ask. If you don't agree with their direction, tell them so. Participate. When they ask for volunteers, step up to the plate. Don't show fear (what do you have to lose that's not already on the chopping block?). Don't tolerate weaklings or management suck-ups among your ranks. Your pilot group voted to band together -- just do it,

If you do the above things, you may win, or you may lose, but someday you'll lie on your deathbed with a proud smile on your face because for at least once in your life you did the right thing, stood up to evil, and refused to be treated like a dog.