CitationAir How Much Longer

[gret]

Like your style rigger.

 

[NachoMamma]

Good posts, however if you post union reality, you are considered anti-union and will attacked by the pro union activists as some form of sub human life. (read SCAB) There is only one way to post and not receive that response and that is to be 100% pro-union and 100% anti-management.

I totally disagree. Like most people, I find myself somewhere in the middle of most union/management rhetoric and choose very carefully which side to believe and why...and always check the facts first. I disparage our naive little friend on this board not because of his views, but because he has no spine.

 

[pilotyip]

Who might this person be?

 

[RCR5]

We're still waiting for any evidence you have to back up your claim, RCR5.

For you and the Dud. How did that union work out for us? GREAT idea huh? We are on our way to the top of the fractional world.....lol.

So, some vote a union in, in less than a year, the company is going under. I know you and the Dud can't fathom this, but we were doing fine without your union crooks. They just put the stake in the heart of this company. It is over, do you get it yet? Dud, I know you ARE really that stupid, it is why I explained it to you.

You are the guys I was referring to when I said that some need to get hit by a bus to know it is going to hurt. I suspect you are really not this stupid but you do give reason to pause.

Are you just upset because I said this union was the end of the company last year and it has come to fruition?

 

[rockhard]

Have the actually announced a date as to furloughs and or closing doors? Is it still just a rumour?

 

[Smooth Cruz]

just offered early buyout, the 20th is the deadline for that, soon after I suspect furlough notices will go out, 100 by end of year, more next year, supposedly not going out of business, just getting out of fractional, managed airplanes will be all thats left, about 26 in our fleet now, cuts will be deep, not a rumor

 

[rockhard]

Thanks Smooth Cruz...

 

[Helmsalee]

"but we were doing fine without your union crooks"

No, you weren't.

 

[imacdog]

For you and the Dud. How did that union work out for us? GREAT idea huh? We are on our way to the top of the fractional world.....lol.

So, some vote a union in, in less than a year, the company is going under. I know you and the Dud can't fathom this, but we were doing fine without your union crooks. They just put the stake in the heart of this company. It is over, do you get it yet? Dud, I know you ARE really that stupid, it is why I explained it to you.

You are the guys I was referring to when I said that some need to get hit by a bus to know it is going to hurt. I suspect you are really not this stupid but you do give reason to pause.

Are you just upset because I said this union was the end of the company last year and it has come to fruition?

So the answer is no, then. You cannot offer a single thing that the union has done that is to the detriment of your company. You are guided by hate and not rational thought.

 

[rigger]

So the answer is no, then. You cannot offer a single thing that the union has done that is to the detriment of your company. You are guided by hate and not rational thought.

God damn get over yourself. The shear existence of the union, the creation of a split pilot group because and from the Union, The company having to expend time, money, manpower to deal with first the threat of and then the actual Union. the Unknown real dollar impact of having a non profit making cost to the companies bottom line called a Union, having to quell the anguish and the angst of the REAL customers that actually pay the bills feelings towards first the threat of a union then the actuality of the Union ( they all are smart folks that KNOW THE UNION WILL COAST THEM MONEY) so having to deal with the why the hell should I stay with your union company when it will cost me more.

There are so many damn things the union has done to the CA bottom line. Again you wont like these and WILL fufu them as BS but they are the tangible intangible facts Union always bring. But you have never done more than be a leach on a company and as such know nothing as to the damage a union really does........

 

[imacdog]

I guess you are correct rigger, and that is why the non-union CitationAir has grown to 2500+ pilots while its main, unionized competition only has about 400.

Oh, wait, no it's the other way around. Let's look at this another way then, since saying having a pilot union is so detrimental to a company that it cannot possibly compete has been completely debunked. CitationAir and fractional flying is not Cessna's raison d'etre. Cessna is in business to manufacture and produce aircraft, and all Slowtation and spam-can jokes aside, they do a fine job at it. If Cessna decides that dabbling in the fractional market is turning its potential fleet customers away from aircraft purchases, then they may decide the responsible thing to do would be to cease the fractional side business and refocus its efforts on whole aircraft and fleet sales. These may be hard facts to swallow but it kind of makes sense compared with the pettiness of shutting down an operation and putting many out of work simply because a pilot union was voted in, no?

 

[BentOver]

I guess you are correct rigger, and that is why the non-union CitationAir has grown to 2500+ pilots while its main, unionized competition only has about 400.

Oh, wait, no it's the other way around. Let's look at this another way then, since saying having a pilot union is so detrimental to a company that it cannot possibly compete has been completely debunked. CitationAir and fractional flying is not Cessna's raison d'etre. Cessna is in business to manufacture and produce aircraft, and all Slowtation and spam-can jokes aside, they do a fine job at it. If Cessna decides that dabbling in the fractional market is turning its potential fleet customers away from aircraft purchases, then they may decide the responsible thing to do would be to cease the fractional side business and refocus its efforts on whole aircraft and fleet sales. These may be hard facts to swallow but it kind of makes sense compared with the pettiness of shutting down an operation and putting many out of work simply because a pilot union was voted in, no?

Bingo.....

 

[727C47]

+ 1 !

 

[Praetorian]

Hate to encumber you with the thought process but...

So, some vote a union in, in less than a year, the company is going under. I know you and the Dud can't fathom this, but we were doing fine without your union crooks. They just put the stake in the heart of this company. It is over, do you get it yet?

Logical falsies:
A Post Hoc is a fallacy with the following form:

A occurs before B.
Therefore A is the cause of B.
The Post Hoc fallacy derives its name from the Latin phrase "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." This has been traditionally interpreted as "After this, therefore because of this." This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that one event causes another simply because the proposed cause occurred before the proposed effect. More formally, the fallacy involves concluding that A causes or caused B because A occurs before B and there is not sufficient evidence to actually warrant such a claim.

Not surprisingly, many superstitions are probably based on Post Hoc reasoning. For example, suppose a person buys a good luck charm, does well on his exam, and then concludes that the good luck charm caused him to do well. This person would have fallen victim to the Post Hoc fallacy.

Post Hoc fallacies are typically committed because people are simply not careful enough when they reason.

 

[rigger]

I guess you are correct rigger, and that is why the non-union CitationAir has grown to 2500+ pilots while its main, unionized competition only has about 400.

Oh, wait, no it's the other way around. Let's look at this another way then, since saying having a pilot union is so detrimental to a company that it cannot possibly compete has been completely debunked. CitationAir and fractional flying is not Cessna's raison d'etre. Cessna is in business to manufacture and produce aircraft, and all Slowtation and spam-can jokes aside, they do a fine job at it. If Cessna decides that dabbling in the fractional market is turning its potential fleet customers away from aircraft purchases, then they may decide the responsible thing to do would be to cease the fractional side business and refocus its efforts on whole aircraft and fleet sales. These may be hard facts to swallow but it kind of makes sense compared with the pettiness of shutting down an operation and putting many out of work simply because a pilot union was voted in, no?

Great post agree 100% they are in the plane making business....not the plane flying . But I was only answering This

"Originally Posted by imacdog
So the answer is no, then. You cannot offer a single thing that the union has done that is to the detriment of your company."

Everything I stated was to the detriment of our company and any union company. Can companies make money with a union sure....but the facts are they do better and make more without a union......

 

[imacdog]

....but not much, and if the difference in staying in business is whether a pilot union exists or not, then I believe you'll agree with me that CA was in rough shape. Considering you don't even have a pilot contract yet (let alone your inability to identify specific costs), any cost to the company so far has been slim at best.

 

[G4dude]

Logical falsies:
A Post Hoc is a fallacy with the following form:

A occurs before B.
Therefore A is the cause of B.
The Post Hoc fallacy derives its name from the Latin phrase "Post hoc, ergo propter hoc." This has been traditionally interpreted as "After this, therefore because of this." This fallacy is committed when it is concluded that one event causes another simply because the proposed cause occurred before the proposed effect. More formally, the fallacy involves concluding that A causes or caused B because A occurs before B and there is not sufficient evidence to actually warrant such a claim.

Not surprisingly, many superstitions are probably based on Post Hoc reasoning. For example, suppose a person buys a good luck charm, does well on his exam, and then concludes that the good luck charm caused him to do well. This person would have fallen victim to the Post Hoc fallacy.

Post Hoc fallacies are typically committed because people are simply not careful enough when they reason.

The logic is this, it seems to me, Cessna was on the fence with CA, but was willing to keep trying to make it more profitable. Then the union gets voted in, and Cessna says, "That's it, now we have an additional financial burden which makes CA a bad bet, so lets dump it." That's what I think happened. Sometimes B causes A, when A was close to happening anyway.

 

[jonjuan]

The logic is this, it seems to me,

We just discovered your problem

 

[RCR5]

God damn get over yourself. The shear existence of the union, the creation of a split pilot group because and from the Union, The company having to expend time, money, manpower to deal with first the threat of and then the actual Union. the Unknown real dollar impact of having a non profit making cost to the companies bottom line called a Union, having to quell the anguish and the angst of the REAL customers that actually pay the bills feelings towards first the threat of a union then the actuality of the Union ( they all are smart folks that KNOW THE UNION WILL COAST THEM MONEY) so having to deal with the why the hell should I stay with your union company when it will cost me more.

There are so many damn things the union has done to the CA bottom line. Again you wont like these and WILL fufu them as BS but they are the tangible intangible facts Union always bring. But you have never done more than be a leach on a company and as such know nothing as to the damage a union really does........

I guess he really was that stupid. I don't have the patience to deal with these first graders as well as you do Rigger. Nice job.

 

[G4dude]

God damn get over yourself. The shear existence of the union, the creation of a split pilot group because and from the Union, The company having to expend time, money, manpower to deal with first the threat of and then the actual Union. the Unknown real dollar impact of having a non profit making cost to the companies bottom line called a Union, having to quell the anguish and the angst of the REAL customers that actually pay the bills feelings towards first the threat of a union then the actuality of the Union ( they all are smart folks that KNOW THE UNION WILL COAST THEM MONEY) so having to deal with the why the hell should I stay with your union company when it will cost me more.

There are so many damn things the union has done to the CA bottom line. Again you wont like these and WILL fufu them as BS but they are the tangible intangible facts Union always bring. But you have never done more than be a leach on a company and as such know nothing as to the damage a union really does........

Right on. This seems to be self evident, but not to Union people who don't understand corporate boards expect profit and the prospect of making future profit. The purpose of a company's existence is not to provide jobs at the expense of a profitable return for the investors. Rigger, you are a good man.