Chicago runway too slick at Crash

[1BigRodeo]

First, someone did call conditions what they were that night...heard it with my own two ears. At least twice. Nil on a couple of occasions. Tower did a nice job of getting new "acceptable" reports out there to get traffic flowing. Nil reports made their way miraculously to "good" when the news crews got to the tower management. Tapes dont lie.

Second, repositioning ones seat might have been the only way to get true "maximum" braking. If youve never tried it, the only two things touching the airplane from your body should be the balls of your feet, and the middle of your back.

Anyone with the holier than though critic attitude on this thread needs to remember two things. First, one life was lost, a family without a son, two careers scarred and possibly ruined, not to mention the nightmares being suffered by the two pilots for the could have- should haves we all face as professionals. Second, it could have happened to any of you on any given day. Go back and review some of the tapes that we all get to see in training. Any of those guys appear incopetent when they showed up for work? Any of them say "Im going to have an accident today?" Didnt think so. How about you, you going flying today?

SWA haters can spew all they want about a culture issue, but the facts stand, the computer said it worked, tower kept the "fair" conditions rolling, and the HUD and ILS Z made it all come together. Were they led down a path? We will find out soon enough. The only difference between us and others is the HUD and the ILS Z to 31c.

By the way, when was the last time any of you reran numbers inside the marker for winds when your supposed to be monitoring an approach???

Monday morning quarterbacking this kind of event is a disgusting byproduct of too many self important, arrogant pinheads standing on the third floor of a glass condo chucking cinderblocks at one another. Coming to this board is like listening to Stern, morbid curiosity in what stupidity will present itself next.

We all want to know exactly what happened, so we dont press on and learn nothing from the lesson Joshua Woods taught us. Use some discretion and class in how you learn it. It would be a much needed boost to our profession if there wasnt such a low class discussion such as this on a public access board.

 

[RP 04]

What did I do?

 

[GuppyWN]

Andy, with your arrogance I can only assume you fly for United. No matter how much you dislike us, it won't make us go away. If that were the case UAL would have been out of business years ago.

Gup

 

[El-Rushbo]

Chicago runway too slick at Crash

By Alan Levin, USA TODAY

The runway at Chicago's Midway International Airport was much slicker than pilots were led to believe on the snowy December night that a Southwest Airlines jet skidded through a fence and killed a 6-year-old boy, according to a USA TODAY analysis.

But the USA TODAY analysis, based on a physics formula using information released by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), shows the conditions were "poor" at best.

How about we all wait for the REAL analysis before we start pointing fingers at SWA, ATC, pilots, etc?

One question that I do have regarding the preliminary NTSB report linked above is

Interviews were conducted with a number of other Southwest Airlines flight crews, including the crew of the last Southwest flight to land at Midway and a subsequent crew that diverted to St. Louis.

Why did the mishap crew choose to land immediately after a company aircraft made a divert decision? No face shot, this is new information to me and it does raise a valid question.

 

[LarryinTN]

They touched down with 4500 feet remaining. Was that on glide slope? Seems like a long landing given the conditions.

They touched down with a ground speed of 133kts. To maintain a G/S at 133kts would require a 665fpm descent which is above certification limits for landing (600fpm) so a flare was required.

The glide slope intersects the runway with 4,922' remaining. That's only 422' of flare distance--less than two seconds.

 

[canyonblue]

Andy, with your arrogance I can only assume you fly for United.
Gup

Fresh out of BK and back to their old selves.uke:

 

[CatfishVT9]

LJ-ABX, some good info. Personally, it seems that if you break out soon enough, "dropping in on the 1 wire" would be a good idea.

Big Rodeo, you need to lighten up. Asking questions and learning from other's mistakes is how military and civilian aviation has gotten so safe. Now I'm only talking about those who ask legitimate questions, not those who just throw stones at a particular company. And we all know who they are.......

 

[1BigRodeo]

LJ-ABX, some good info. Personally, it seems that if you break out soon enough, "dropping in on the 1 wire" would be a good idea.

Big Rodeo, you need to lighten up. Asking questions and learning from other's mistakes is how military and civilian aviation has gotten so safe. Now I'm only talking about those who ask legitimate questions, not those who just throw stones at a particular company. And we all know who they are.......

I am lightening up, I just got back from a run. Might have lost a pound. Thanks for your concern. I have no issues with asking questions. That keeps us from misunderstanding the lesson that is being taught here. My problem is with the venom spewing knowitall ilk that would post a slam in relation to a fatal accident. Thats all. I was there that night, I landed there and have some perspective. Theres more to it than what you can read in any current report. There are good men depending on the truth to come out.

 

[FDJ2]

First, let me state that SWA does have an outstanding safety record. This is not a slam of an airline. None of us are perfect, and I know for a fact that I make mistakes everytime I fly.

I don't know the feasibility of changing RWYs at MDW, I've never even landed there and I am unfamiliar with the approaches, but here is a question for those who are familiar with airport operations at MDW. The preliminary NTSB report states that had the aircraft landed with a headwind as opposed to a tailwind, stopping distance would have been 1,000' shorter. Why land on a less favorable runway under these terrible conditions? Why not ask to change runways?

This is from the Preliminary report:

Preliminary calculations show that the airplane touched down with about 4,500 feet of remaining runway and was on the runway for about 29 seconds. Preliminary calculations also show that, for the runway conditions and use of brakes and thrust reverser that occurred, the stopping distance without hitting obstructions would have been about 5,300 feet (the actual stopping distance was about 5,000 feet). In addition, had the airplane landing into the wind, rather than with a tail wind, the stopping distance for a landing would have been about 1,000 feet less.

Approximately 20 minutes prior to the accident, the winds were from 100 degrees at 11 knots, visibility was 1/2 mile in moderate snow and freezing fog, the ceiling was broken at 400 feet, and overcast at 1400 feet, temperature -3C, dew point -5C, altimeter setting 30.06 in. Hg. Remarks - runway 31C rvr (runway visual range) 4500 feet, snow increment - 1 inch of new show in the last hour, 10 inches on the ground.

 

[Andy]

Andy,

Lets face it, this would never happen to you. You are better then any of us, in your opinion.

I believe any Southwest Pilot (even the ones on my avoidence bid) could fly circles around you. Since we all fly 8 legs a day and 1000 hours a year - we are good at what we do. Why not wait until you hear all the facts.. do I think errors might have been made? sure. Do I think the Pilots plugged numbers in the OPC to "make things work", do I think they said "hey it (the opc) says we can't land safety, but lets do it anyway?" NO. NOT JUST NO BUT F#^k NO.

Look, I don't hate Southwest; it's not on my airline hate list. The list is very small, and Southwest ain't one of them.

I will not, however, allow some of you foaming at the mouth Southwest fanatics tell me that a USA Today 'analysis' clears your airline of any perceived cowboy ops. Like it or not, Southwest has clearly earned that reputation in the aviation community.

I'm just a lousy Yonited pilot, on furlough at that. We at Yonited have our own reputation in the industry; I don't deny that there is more than a grain of truth to our reputation.
And if it makes you feel any better, yes, the least competent of Southwest's pilots can fly rings around me. As for something like this happening to me, it's possible, but not likely. I've diverted before and I'll divert again. I know my limitations, and I am NOT the best pilot in the industry. I don't have a huge ego and I will never bend to company pressures to fly as scheduled.
There ya go, I admit that I'm just a subpar dirtbag pilot who could only get hired at Yonited because no real airline would hire me. Giddyup, Tex.