chemtrails

[Denver130]

low altitude trails

Are people seeing low altitude contrails in Houston or high altitude contrails in Houston?

Houston typically has low hanging cloud cover and its very easy to get a shot of low altitude below cloud cover contails on film. And film doesn't lie.

Someone now is going to tell me that those clouds that we see in Houston are those high flyin cirrus clouds.

I can't think of a time when Houston was noted for cirrus clouds.
Literature will bear that fact out.

So what are we seeing. Is it too X-file-i-ly to say that its chemicals.

How can you or I ignore the FACT that the military has a history of testing chemical and biological agents on citizens and cities. Thats what the mainstream press has been telling us for the past 2 years. We just can't seem to phantom that or believe it. You can see it on the Discovery Channel in a special or read about it in books such as "Clouds of Secrecy".

 

[Denver130]

chemtrail

Chemtrails.... I hope its false.....I hope its a lie.....
But we have to look at the facts. We have to look at science. We have to look with an open mind.

And so far I haven't found a better answer......

Some write it off as chemtrail religion.
Some write it off as faith in God.
Some think that citizens are dumb and "what do they know about contrails anyway".
Some claim they've seen different.
Some say "it can happen", "its possible to have low altitude contrails".

But theres a few who say "I never read a posting by someone who actually researched the topic before typing on his keyboard. He actually makes sense!"

 

[414Flyer]

Or how about there is no proof of anything other than normal contrails at normal altitudes. They can look different, just like clouds can look different. Because thats what they are, clouds made by jet engines.

Has it crossed your mind that not a single pilot has ever seen your trails at 12,000 that you insist exist. But the small group of people that are so insistent those trails exist, are looking from the ground, with no way to judge altitudes except perception and guessing?

Planes have altimeters...I have flown for about 8 years, never once see these trails. And I have flown to Houston too.

 

[Typhoon1244]

Give it up, guys. I spent a couple of weeks trying to explain the reality of condensation trails to Denver130. At one point he sent me the links to four documents that he claimed proved his point.

One was an international study of the contributions being made to atmospheric pollution by jetliners...specifcally CO2.

The second was a NASA proposal to look into how contrails influence weather and climate.

The third was a bare-bones explanation of what contrails are.

The fourth was a NOAA page that explained contrails in great detail. It did state that contrails are usually found at high altitudes where the temperatures are generally -40 degrees and below. Generally. It also stated quite clearly that contrails can linger for hours and are not caused by anything being sprayed into the atmosphere.

He also referred me to a picture of one of these "chemical" planes at work, saying that you can clearly see some sort of mist being sprayed from the tips of the horizontal stabilizers. It was, in fact, a photograph of a Continental 767 with a condensation plume forming about fifty feet aft of each engine.

This was his compelling "evidence."

These people (1) have no understanding of aerodynamics or meteorology, (2) got their hands on some highly technical documents they didn't understand, and (3) have an almost fanatical mistrust of the federal government. (It's been said before, but it bears repeating: does anyone really think our government could pull off such a wide-ranging conspiracy?) The result: "chemtrails."

Denver130's credibility fell apart when I looked at those links. He's like the homeless guy who stops you in the street and tells you the CIA is trying to steal his brain.

Denver, why haven't you answered 414Flyer's question? Why is it that...

...in as long as this hoax has been going on, not a single photo has been taken of a chemplane...?

 

[Typhoon1244]

...the small group of people that are so insistent those [low-altitude] trails exist are looking from the ground, with no way to judge altitudes except perception and guessing...

That's the heart of the issue right there.

I probably didn't help matters any when I told Denver130 I'd seen condensation trails at low altitudes. Under certain conditions, you can even see them on takeoff and landing, as VNugget
pointed out.

 

[Mogus]

How can you or I ignore the FACT that the military has a history of testing chemical and biological agents on citizens and cities. Thats what the mainstream press has been telling us for the past 2 years.

Well, then, it MUST be true!

 

[VampyreGTX]

Um... did anyone not notice in his discussion of lapse rates, he is using 2.5 degress per thousand feet, which is correct, when applied to CELSIUS. He is using Fahrenheit! Therefore, when it's 90* in Houston, or in other words, 32* Celsius. A lapse rate of 2.5* C/1,000' would have the freeze level at 12,800. A temp of -40* F is equal to -40*C. So for -40*C the standard lapse rate would make that at an altitude of 28,800'. Not all that high, given that the majority of airliners fly above 30,000. With contrails able to form to the freeze level given the level of moisture in the atmosphere, we can see that it is possible to see contrails as low as the freeze level, which on a 90*F 'standard' day would be at 12,800' and all the way up into the flight levels.

But, we'll never convince these conspiracy nuts otherwise. I love how they take facts and documents that actually disprove their argument and contort them to fit what they believe....

 

[skeezer]

The average temperature decrease is 2.5 degrees per 1,000ft. So what is the temperature at 12,000ft?

2.5 times 12 = 30
90 – 30 = 60 (temperature at 12K)

By the way, lets do the math at 40,000ft.

2.5 times 40 = 100 (thats the amount of decreasing temperature at 40K)

90 - 100 = -10F

Denver130, I feel the need to correct your math here. If you are talking about temperature decrease with altitude. The lapse rate is 2 degrees CENTIGRADE per 1,000ft. The number you are using is in CENTIGRADE yet you are using it as if it were degrees F.

So.... to re-visist your math:

Temp at 12K with surface temp of 90F

90F equals 32C

32C- 2(12) equals 8 degrees C or 48 F

at 40K you get:

32C- 2(40) equals -48 degrees C or -54F cold enough for contrails eh?

Just tryin to help

Peace!!

Skeezer

 

[skeezer]

Dangit it VampyreGTX, you type too fast!!

You beat me to it.

Peace!

Skeezer

 

[Typhoon1244]

Holy smokes, guys.

Early in our electronic "conversation," Denver130 asserted that contrails could not exist in Houston during the summer because of the extremely high temperatures. In other words, he'd never heard of the adiabatic lapse rate.

I have just now realized that I told Denver130 that the standard lapse rates are 2 degrees C per 1000' and 2.5 degrees F per 1000'. It's supposed to be 3.5 degrees F per thousand! (My apologies. It's been a long time since I've used Farenheit...or studied for the P.P. written!)

This proves, however, that Denver130 is pretty selective about what facts he checks up on!

 

[414Flyer]

Well regardless there are not any contrails at mid levels usually, because my Agency handlers told me so

 

[Aerosmith]

Re: low altitude trails

Someone now is going to tell me that those clouds that we see in Houston are those high flyin cirrus clouds.

I can't think of a time when Houston was noted for cirrus clouds.
Literature will bear that fact out.

So you conclude after extensive study, that cirrus clouds never form over Houston???!

HAHAAAAA....

 

[Aerosmith]

Guys, you have got to check out the bulletin board of these nut cases. It made my day.

Go to the Aerosol Operation Crimes & Cover Up Documented under the MESSAGE BOARD and check out the thread called "the harrasment continues"

http://www.carnicom.com/contrails.htm

 

[Denver130]

asdfasdf

 

[Denver130]

chemtrails - new math

Some folks have said my math was incorrect. I should be using the 3.5F figure instead of the 2.5 figure, so lets recalculate jet contrails at 12,000ft at 90 degrees Houston temperature.

3.5 times 12 = 42
90 - 42 = 48

Would jet contrails normally form at 48F? No

Lets try 30,000ft at 90 degrees.

3.5 times 30 = 105
90 -105 = -15

Would normal jet contrails form at -15F? No

Lets try 37,000ft at 90.

3.5 times 37 = 129.5

90 - 129.5 = -39.5F

Would normal jet contrails form at -39.5F? I think they would even though I'm a half a degree off from the text book standard of -40.

What altitude are clouds normally at? The text box answer is betwteen 10K and 15K. (Houston is not known for cirrus clouds)

Hense, heres the question that all of us "little people" are asking.

Is it normal to see X's, grids, cartwheels, and lines above our houses in Houston? Is it normal to watch 6 to 8 jets over our jobs leaving trails woven though the clouds? Is it normal to see them linger for hours? The answer is NO, if you look at it scientifically using known scientific research.

Is there any other explaination to the puzzle? Yes ... chemtrails

Even your politicians in Washington have said this. Why wont you believe them?

 

[Denver130]

chemtrail sites?

I believe that if you truly want to unlock the mystery of this low altitude phenomenon, we should rely on science primarily and so I have purposely shyed away from quoting anything other than scientific research.

A secondary component that we should consider is politics.

Since politicians have admitted to such a program, we should not discount that evidence.

A third component that we should consider is US military history (which is quite public and common knowledge) of testing chemical and biological agents on population centers. We should not discount that evidence.

We live in a different world today. They say that fact is stranger than fiction.

If you have another spare moment. Take another look at the photos at www.geocities.com/houstonchemtrails

Ask youself again, are these normal?

 

[flywithastick]

I can't resist. Here's some more fuel for the fire.

Been flying in Texas and specifically around Houston for the last 15+ yrs. Never seen a trail anywhere near 10, 12, 14 thousand. have seen them at 30-35+ thou during certain times of the year. Also have seen *chemical* trails at 60+ thou. and at ~50agl.

NASA's WB-57 spraying "stuff" at the higher altitudes for some research project, and lower being the Beech D-18 "Mosquito Bomber" spraying insectacide (sp?), operated by the county.

Hope this isn't too disappointing, Typhoon! But I guess both of these could be considered chem spraying by the government.

 

[414Flyer]

Re: chemtrails - new math

Some folks have said my math was incorrect. I should be using the 3.5F figure instead of the 2.5 figure, so lets recalculate jet contrails at 12,000ft at 90 degrees Houston temperature.

Are you not reading what anyone, me included, has typed.

A. How did you come up with 12,000 ft ?

B. Why has no one who flies, seen these mysterious trails?

C. why is it the only ones who have such ideas, are those who spend no time in the air, no nothing about aviation, and little about meteorology.

D. What have you done to educate yourself about aviation, and how aircraft navigate?

You have offered no proof of anything down low.

Is it normal to see X's, grids, cartwheels, and lines above our houses in Houston? Is it normal to watch 6 to 8 jets over our jobs leaving trails woven though the clouds? Is it normal to see them linger for hours? The answer is NO, if you look at it scientifically using known scientific research.

Yes, you have traffic coming into houston from every direction, and planes are flying over Houston while going to other locations.

What is it supposed to look like then?
Should the planes be avoiding clouds so it makes you feel better?
Its called Houston "Intercontinental"..Of course it will get busy with lots of aircraft. Would you feel secure if it was only 1 plane in the sky at a time?

Is there any other explaination to the puzzle? Yes ... chemtrails

Even your politicians in Washington have said this. Why wont you believe them?

Yes there is an answer : paranoia and ignorance.

Who is your politician? Kucinich? He already backed off of that...When has he been saying it?

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

You have got to be kidding right???!!!!

How do these nut cases function in everyday life?


On a side note, everyone needs to be very afraid of the giant Moose fart plot going on in Canada!!!!!!!!!!!! It has already affected my golf game. Is yours next?

 

[skeezer]

I read that thread in the chemtrails message board about the "continuing harrasment." Holy crapola was it frightening!

The person being "harrassed" has posted the liscence plate numbers of every car that has "sprayed" them over the last 3 years. I'm guessing that there are over a couple thousand plate numbers in the post. Apparently if your car is smoking you are evil and intentionally harming this persons family. PRAISE THE LORD JESUS!!! oh, did I mention the poster praises Jesus about 5-10 times each post.

In another post they talk about "chemtrail fibers." Apparently they have never noticed some species of sipders travel by emmitting a long thread and using it to float away. I know this because i've had those little fuggers land on me before.

Denver, in the website you linked to there is absolutley NOTHING unusual about those pictures. NOTHING! The one contrail that appears to be below a cloud layer may be just that. However the cloud layer in that picture is typical of a HIGH altitude layer that I have seen MANY times before. Note how thin the above lying layer is. Also I have NEVER EVER EVER seen a contrail around 12,000 feet. NEVER.

Skeezer