Career Advice for the 2008 hiring boom

[pilotyip]

Who are you to define a career

You might only be able to get to a mid level aviation job, where you suffer throught life at 100K per year, oh well it is a rotten job, but someone has to do it. It is not for the degreed pilots on this board to define everyone's career. For Falcon Capt, your statisics may be correct by Air Inc stanards, but in the late 90's almost every one of our non-degreed pilots got jobs at either majors, or Nationals, like Air Tran, Spirit. It could be non-degree pilots only make up 5% of the applicants, but for 8,000 hour 121 background pilots with multi jet types, their hire ratio must be very close to degreed pilots.

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

SHOW ME THE NUMBERS

Okay, somebody here has easy access to pilot hiring numbers for 1998. I did a year ago, but my password expired. I wanna see how many people were hired by major airlines without degrees. I'll just say perhaps 1%....maybe 5 to be generous. The point is not what job is good for whom. Many people would be happy making 100k at a mid-level job. In that case, I suggest a separate thread entitled "can I get a good mid-level job without a degree?". Sure ya can. (that number might be around 15%).

The question is: Major airline job versus 4-year degree. Show me numbers to convince me otherwise, and I will gladly change my position. I personally know of a whopping ZERO number of people who have been hired by major airlines in the last 5 years without degrees.

I've always hated these stupid surveys, but I smell one coming on...

 

[Kingairrick]

That was going to be my point.

Why post a question and then argue to the death, the honest opinion answers you are getting? Getting, from people who statistically, in at least a few cases, are ahead of you in their careers? (I learned that in college.)

Here's another viewpoint for you to try to repute:
You might actually learn something in college! wouldn't that be worth something?

 

[banned username 2]

The irony of this entire thread is that PilotYIP has a degree... two of them as a matter of fact, the latter being a Master's Degree.

Me thinks PilotYIP just felt like arguing so started a thread he knew would cause an argument.

PilotYIP, since you singled me out in your last post, I respond to you. I realize many guys from USA Jet went to AirTran, Spirit, and the likes during the last boom, you know why? Because there was a "Qualified Pilot Shortage" of sorts. These LCC's hire non-degreed people because they will work for lower wages and the company can keep their costs down. I don't think many, if any of your non-degreed guys went to the likes of UAL, AA, CAL, DAL or probably even SWA for that matter.

You can come on here spouting how you are making $100,000 at a job that non-degreed guys have... But my (rhetorical) question to you is, how many years did it take you to get to that pay? I know for a fact I am 25 years your junior, and from the pay numbers you quoted I am quite a bit ahead. Not trying to be harsh, but if you are going to spout facts, give them all the details so they can compare apples to apples.

 

[Kingairrick]

By the way...

I know several pilots who are getting interviewed NOW (2003) and they ALL have degrees.

 

[Alaskaairlines]

I would appreciate if you guys give me some advise on what to do in a situation liek this:

I will be finishing my first year of college next semester, after I complete my Comm/Multi I have a good chance of getting on with a 121 carrier, here up north, because of working there (similar to an internship), I oviously won't turn down the twin turbine 121 job because of school, if I am locally based I still should be able to go to school , but if not, is the Embry-Riddle on-line degree program efficient? Will a normal guy like me be able to do it in a timely fashion? Let me know what you guys think and if you have any advise for me.

 

[greyhound]

Pilotyip does have a point...

How CAN anyone define what a career should mean to someone?

Not everyone has major airline aspirations.
If someone wanted to be a career CFI, or stay at the regionals, would you still tell them to take the time and get a degree?

Don't depend on others, to enjoy "YOUR" career.

 

[slinky]

to "alaska...."
I would honestly suggest that you continue to get your degree. Reasons 1. It may help you get that "better" interview. Better being determined by you for your life style.
2. Avaition is fickle. You may loose your ticket do to some strange medical reason. I know plenty of great pilots who are now doing something else due to a med problem that they could not control.
3. What seems to be your hearts desire at 22 may not be your dream at 32.
I would invest in yourself. If you want to go to school part time and fly part time, maybe that will work for you. I really believe that you will probably drop the degreee over time this way due to the rigors of flying the line. In my humble and uninformed view get the degree and get it in something that you would like to do if you were in an accident and unable to fly

slinky

 

[bobbysamd]

Here we go again . . .

Or, Yip, as Ronald Reagan told Jimmy Carter in 1980, "There you go again."

I didn't read each and every comment after Yip's initial post. His argument against the degree presupposes that one can be hired and advance in aviation without the degree. I submit that (1) that is a false supposition/assumption, and (2) even if true, your efforts will be impeded greatly without the degree. In other words, without the degree you will embark on a long and difficult journey with a strike against you; the strike being that you don't have the degree while most of your competition does. Why shoot yourself in the foot before taking the first step?

Once again, do not assume that having a four-year degree automatically grants you the right to a job. It does not, not even a degree from Harvard. The education aside, the degree is another good door-opener. I would submit that having a degree got me two jobs, my very first at ERAU and my job instructing at Mesa. Had I not been a college man, I would not have been considered for either. Word to those who might consider instructing as their career.

Once more, I will say that we as pilots have far less control over our credentials that those in other industries. Our flight time and experience very much govern our success. That may be Yip's argument - but we owe it to ourselves to present the very best credentials possible. We have control over some of these credentials, such as the certificates and ratings we earn and the educational quals we can offer. The degree fits in that category. Fate and luck may decide which jobs we get to build time, but each person has total control over training and educational qualifications. In other words, you can get the degree. It is a decision that you and not fate can make. Get it. Take control.

 

[Flyingtoohigh]

I would appreciate if you guys give me some advise on what to do in a situation like this...

That's a tough question there. The good thing about college credit is that once you earn it, it's yours for good. You can transfer it (to a limited degree) and it doesn't expire.

I'm a little farther along in college but I can relate to your predicament. Most guys I know would give anything for 121 jet time right about now. My advice is to keeping asking folks who have completed ERAU's distance program, or any other distance program you would be interested.

Earning your degree make the difference if you are ever furloughed, trying to switch airlines, desire a career change, or have medical difficulties. With 121 jet time, a degree, and a few years line experience, you could really be set to go and still south of 30 years old.

Getting 121 jet time alone is great, but when furlough time comes, you and hundreds of other pilots are out on the street. Guess what else everybody else has? That's right, 121 jet time. A degree could mean a new job or at least something to do until you are picked back up again.

An online degree program might be the ticket for you. Even a local community college will be tough to attend while flying line and down right impossible on reserve.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

I would appreciate if you guys give me some advise on what to do in a situation liek this:

I will be finishing my first year of college next semester, after I complete my Comm/Multi I have a good chance of getting on with a 121 carrier, here up north, because of working there (similar to an internship), I oviously won't turn down the twin turbine 121 job because of school, if I am locally based I still should be able to go to school , but if not, is the Embry-Riddle on-line degree program efficient? Will a normal guy like me be able to do it in a timely fashion? Let me know what you guys think and if you have any advise for me.

I am working on a degree through the ERAU extended campus (internet) program and a coworker is also doing his masters the same way.
We both like the program and the flexibility. It is a lot of work though. You don't get away without studying and in some respects it can be harder than traditional college settings. If you live near a resident center you can do some of your classes there if your schedule works out.
If you want to eventually end up at a major your chances are much better with the degree. Even if you don't go to a major I've found the classes to be relevant and useful. They are also much more "real world" than the classes I took in college nearly 20 years ago.
One thing I have to say to Alaskaairlines who made the post I quoted is that hey, you're still a young pup. Ultimately you could go traditional classroom or ERAU extended campus and you'll do fine either way. You seem very motivated which is important. Do what feels right to you and don't take everything on this board too seriously. A lot of guys that busted their hump to get hired by UAL are on the street and their slacker friends that hung out for a while at a commuter before getting on at JetBlue will be upgrading in a year. My point is that success is part timing and part luck. People make the best decision with the information they have and sometimes get it wrong. Noone has a crystal ball. The decisions in the example I just made looked very good at the time. Unfortunately the UAL furloughee is back to square one flying for a regional if he's lucky. Fast forward 5 years and who knows. JetBlue could be out of business and the UAL furloughee is back at mainline pulling down 100K plus. This whole industry can start to look like a craps table.

 

[dasmith]

get a degree

college is a lot of fun, especially the ladies, do you know more females get degrees then men? go enjoy in the imbalance

 

[Frank Abagnale]

I would appreciate if you guys give me some advise on what to do in a situation liek this:

I will be finishing my first year of college next semester, after I complete my Comm/Multi I have a good chance of getting on with a 121 carrier, here up north, because of working there (similar to an internship), I oviously won't turn down the twin turbine 121 job because of school, if I am locally based I still should be able to go to school , but if not, is the Embry-Riddle on-line degree program efficient? Will a normal guy like me be able to do it in a timely fashion? Let me know what you guys think and if you have any advise for me.

time is everything in this buisness. especaily turbine time, even better 121 turbine. if you can do both at the same time, more power to you. i know alot of f.o.'s taking classes online while they fly the line. 4 year degree should not be a limiting factor for you for a couple of years. plenty of time to live the dream.

best of luck

 

[msw]

Why is it EITHER "get the degree" or "do the professional flying"? I was a CFI by my sophomore year in college, and flying Part 135 scheduled pax and frieght (piston twins) by my Junior year. I was, essentially, working full time and going to school full time. Ultimately, when I graduated with a BS degree in engineering, I also had approx 2500 hrs TT , about 800 hrs multi, and the "You Passed The ATP, But Bring This Letter Back To The FAA When You Turn 23" Letter. And in a good position to move on to further professional aviation pursuits. The point is, a young person CAN do both. Yes, it is hard, but what better time to do it, than when you are young and (relatively) unencumbered?

 

[Frac Daddy]

pilotyip,

Here is a REAL scenario for you: Within a couple of months of each other, six pilots at a certain fractional interview at Southwest; five have degrees and one doesn't. The five with the degrees sail through the interview and get hired. The one without the degree gets badgered by the interviewer because he doesn't have one even though his current employer has a tuition reimbursement program. Although this pilot has more time than the rest of the other pilots, he is the only one rejected.

A REAL fact: FedEx REQUIRES a four year degree.

Another REAL fact: Your options, should you be furloughed or lose your medical, are more limited without a degree.


Get a degree! Any degree!!

 

[Alaskaairlines]

Hey there fellas!

Well I certainly do appreciate all the encouragement and advise! Dave Benjamin, Frank Abagnale, etc... thanks for the words of advise and encouragement! Sure means a lot when school keeps you extremely busy!

I'll keep you guys posted and i'd appreciate more tips!

 

[Dutch]

Is this a realistic comparison?

While I agree that all things being equal a degree may tip the scales I wonder how accurate this thread really is. No one, degree or not is guaranteed the results that pilot B got...I'd love to have 4500 hours in that time frame but many things must fall into place for that to happen.

my $0.02

 

[Vortilon]

1. There is no quick, guaranteed way to get anywhere in aviation....so a "head start" building time guarantees nothing. Someone will always have more hours than you.

2. You will spend most of your aviation life trying to fulfull certain requirements so you can check certain boxes on applications to get that "big job" you are looking for...a degree is merely one of those boxes and is a lot easier to get now than when you are 30 and working for a living...so why not just do it?

3. As someone else mentioned, you take your degree with you through life so no matter what you do...your degree will benefit you.

4. And most importantly, your degree and depth of life experience will also benefit ME if I fly with you.

I don't know many pilots that talk about flying all day when we're in the cockpit...how boring...not to mention redundant! Flying stories are meant to be told over beers on the overnight. When I'm cruising for 4 hours I want to hear your fun college stories, how you are interested in certain cars, your investment strategies, your interest in history, how you are buying your first house, how your painful divorce is rendering your penniless, etc.! If you don't have a degree I'll just have to listen to: "This TCAS sure is neat....I remember once when I got this TA and...."

Go enjoy your college years, earn the degree and THEN jump headfirst into aviation. You have plenty of time to fly later.

And one personal point from my own experience....every job I've been able to get in aviation so far (flight instructor, regional airline pilot, major airline pilot & now charter pilot) has had a lot to do with help from my friends...all of whom I met in college and are still a part of my life. There is no gray-haired mentor out there who will help you get every interview....turns out its your peers and lifelong friends that help you out in this business and you're going to need all the help you can get.

Good luck with whatever you decide!

 

[de Pez]

Above a certain threshold, total flight hours count for very little. That threshold will vary depending upon the individuals' background (military/civilian) and the types of aicraft flown, among half a dozen other variables...So how do the HR people decide who to call for an interview? They look at the total package....Recommendations, background, recency of experience, PIC, and total flight time.

Once the interview is achieved, a degree can make a tremendous difference between one candidate and another also. Imagine sitting in a room with 10 people having comparable flight times, no DUI's, and all the appropriate boxes checked. All except the one individual who hasn't checked college degree. He may be hired, but statistically, probably not.

As of May 2001, Air Inc. stats show that 88% of civilian new hires at "major" airlines had a college degree, and 99% of military new hires had "4 or more years of college".

 

[Hugh Jorgan]

As of May 2001, Air Inc. stats show that 88% of civilian new hires at "major" airlines had a college degree, and 99% of military new hires had "4 or more years of college".

In all of 2000, here's the breakdown of 1023 of the hired pilots to major airlines.

89% of the civilians had 4 year degrees or more. But that doesn't mean the other 11% didn't go to school. A full 10% more had at least 2-3 years of college. Only a mere 1% had less than two years of college. I'd say this supports the need for college to fly for a major .

Now, if one looks at the numbers for the Nationals and Regionals, it supports PilotYIP's point that one can have a good flying career without a college education. I'd say this is a good graph to refer to for decision-making in that regard. Your mileage may vary (as Goldie from the naval aviation safety school often said).
http://www.jet-jobs.com/press releases/chartstats.html