CALEX negotiations take turn for worse

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

Why are we guaranteed to succeed where others have failed? First, whe are incredibly angry and unified. None of us expected to be FOs on an RJ for 5 years and we are so PO'd by management's games that many are ready to burn the house down. Still, that means nothing without the second reason, LEVERAGE. If we walk, CAL no longer serves Milwaukee, Charlotte, Louisville, Memphis, St. Louis, Palm Springs, Toronto, Montreal, and many smaller cities. XJT mgt. will not settle until told to by CAL. We are merely a shell corporation, and a strike by us would likely put CAL in Ch.11 in a matter of days. So when Gordo and Co. feel CAL's public image (best place to work, so our mgt. keeps telling us) is being tarnished too much by our soon to be unleashed PR blitz, only then will XJT come back to the table and pay the piper.

Dewey, I agree we have a lot leverage at the moment, but CAL can put a 737 into most of those cities to maintain some kind of market share. They would take a bloodbath in losses to do it in most cases, but they can still fly where ever they want, and it wouldn't be struck work. They sold all the tickets. They're their routes. They can e-sub if they want to, and they will in the most lucrative markets. But their operation would look a lot like it did in the late 80's early 90's, and we all know how well that was working. Came close to bankruptcy #3. I think CAL must be trying to set some kind of record for Ch. 11 filings.

 

[vmc-hound]

Why are we guaranteed to succeed where others have failed? First, whe are incredibly angry and unified. None of us expected to be FOs on an RJ for 5 years and we are so PO'd by management's games that many are ready to burn the house down. Still, that means nothing without the second reason, LEVERAGE. If we walk, CAL no longer serves Milwaukee, Charlotte, Louisville, Memphis, St. Louis, Palm Springs, Toronto, Montreal, and many smaller cities. XJT mgt. will not settle until told to by CAL. We are merely a shell corporation, and a strike by us would likely put CAL in Ch.11 in a matter of days. So when Gordo and Co. feel CAL's public image (best place to work, so our mgt. keeps telling us) is being tarnished too much by our soon to be unleashed PR blitz, only then will XJT come back to the table and pay the piper.

amen brother....don't know about the shell corp though!!!

 

[vmc-hound]

one word for all.....REPO....

in theory and only theory ...Cal could repo all airplanes, training center gates etc and contract skywest to fly all the routes without skipping too much of a beat!!!that is the extreme but very possible...

 

[mckpickle]

First off you guys are assuming that that would not be struck work. Ask Mesaba. If CAL were to put anything other than what they already run before the strike it would be struck work and not be flown. Our MEC will see to that.

Second your assuming that CAL actually has the pilots to fly said routes. Even with the recalls they will be so short staffed they couldn't hope to cover the flying.

CAL can take back the a/c and training center but only after 90 days as per the CPA.

Lastly the pilots who are trained to fly the ERJ at CAL are at the bottom of the senoirity list. Not the super scabs hired in 83-85. Do you think the super scabs would fly an RJ? Heck their lucky they can fit their girth into a 737.

If this thing gets ugly CAL will not let XJT go on strike. We generate over 1 billion in revenue. They can not afford to loose that.

 

[DesertFalcon]

The beatings will continue til moral improves!

GREAT SIGNATURE LINE..... Unfortunately true with many organizations.

DesertFalcon

 

[Sam Fisher]

one word for all.....REPO....

in theory and only theory ...Cal could repo all airplanes, training center gates etc and contract skywest to fly all the routes without skipping too much of a beat!!!that is the extreme but very possible...

While you did admit that it was just theory, it was more like a fantasy for CAL management. That logistical nightmare that would occur while CAL attempted to do this would be insurmountable. The Training Center, by the way, is not "repo-able" by CAL, only the airplanes and gate space. Of course, if XJT were to lease out the Training Center, they could. Nonetheless, I really would enjoy watching CAL management even attempt to staff 250ish jets overnight. From "Coming To America," That would be something...

Sam

 

[mckpickle]

Sam

Actually as per the CPA CAL has access to the training center. Its right in the CPA. As I said above however, the a/c can be taken away but only after 90 days of labor unrest.

 

[145EXR]

they can have all the access they want to the training center, but all of our instructors/apds/checkairmen are unionized!

 

[Sam Fisher]

Sam

Actually as per the CPA CAL has access to the training center. Its right in the CPA. As I said above however, the a/c can be taken away but only after 90 days of labor unrest.

Mcpinky

You've seen the CPA? How did you gain access to it? CAL ALPA hasn't even seen the CPA!

Seriously though, CAL cannot "take back" the Training Center. It is still XJT's. If you read the following, quoted from the 10K, it says that CAL can only "take back" the aircraft, but XJT must provide the Training Center to CAL to train the scabs. To put all the rumors to bed, I've pasted the entire portion of this section of the 10K.

Sam

Labor Disruption. Upon the occurrence of a union-authorized labor strike, the capacity purchase agreement provides that:

•we will no longer have the right to be Continentals exclusive provider of regional jets in or out of its hub airports in New York/Newark, Houston and Cleveland, regardless of the length of the strike;

•we will be compensated only for the flights we complete, and will not be compensated for any controllable or uncontrollable cancellations regardless of our historical cancellation rates;

•on each of the 2nd, 15th, 30th, 45th, 60th and 75th days of the strike, Continental will be entitled to terminate our subleases for, and take immediate possession of, up to 20 of our aircraft that are covered by the capacity purchase agreement, to a maximum of 120 aircraft if the strike extends to the 75th day;

•we will be required to provide to Continental or its designee, for the duration of the strike and 180 days thereafter and at market rates, first-priority access to all of our flight simulators, hangars, training and other facilities and inventory to the extent necessary to enable Continental or its designee to operate any aircraft of which Continental takes possession as a result of the strike; and

•if the strike continues for 90 days or more, Continental is entitled to terminate the capacity purchase agreement for cause, cancel our subleases and take immediate possession of all of the aircraft covered by the capacity purchase agreement.

 

[mckpickle]

That is the CPA. Thanks for posting it. Sorry I was wrong on the 90 day thing. But as you can see they have ACCESS to the training center(ie sims). They cannot take it but they can use it.

One he1l of a document though isn't it. Oh well if they don't wanna pay guess the bank will own the training center.

 

[Ben Franklin]

•if the strike continues for 90 days or more, Continental is entitled to terminate the capacity purchase agreement for cause, cancel our subleases and take immediate possession of all of the aircraft covered by the capacity purchase agreement.[/i]

And the pilots come from..... where?

How much does a 50 seat E-145 Captain make on the current CAL cba?

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[Sam Fisher]

That is the CPA. Thanks for posting it. Sorry I was wrong on the 90 day thing. But as you can see they have ACCESS to the training center(ie sims). They cannot take it but they can use it.

One he1l of a document though isn't it. Oh well if they don't wanna pay guess the bank will own the training center.

Actually, that is the Annual Report, not the CPA. The CPA is a confidential internal document that us line pilot weenies will never see.

In reality, the clauses stated in the Annual Report about the CPA aren't all that important because assuming the IPO never happened, CAL would still have the right, with or without the CPA, to give those airplanes to other airlines and have them flown by SCABS. Those clauses are there for legality and disclosure of potential risk and liability for the investors.

Sam

 

[Sam Fisher]

And the pilots come from..... where?

How much does a 50 seat E-145 Captain make on the current CAL cba?

Sincerely,

B. Franklin

It doesn't say it has to be flown by CAL pilots. CAL, Inc. can take the planes back and reallocate them to be flown by SCABS from another airline, such as Mesa or whoever is the lowest bidder. Either way, they'd be SCABS.

Sam

 

[vmc-hound]

this is an "extreme" example of what can happen...hopefully it will not...

both sides do not want the "dooms day scenario" pilots or managment!!!!

The cpa was published and given to employees when it came out...

 

[Sam Fisher]

The cpa was published and given to employees when it came out...

No it was not. The CPA is a confidential internal document that describes the marketing agreement between CAL, Inc. and XJT Airlines. Please stop posting incorrect information. What you are referring to is the IPO prospectus and subsequent SEC filings which are public documents which describe in some general nature what the CPA is and how it works but I can 100% assure you that it was NOT given to any employees.

So what is it exactly that you do for ExpressJet?

Sam

 

[Propblast]

All that strike language is bluster because CAL realized the mistake they made when they allowed all their feed to be controlled by one carrier. You XJT guys have them bent over. Don't miss your opportunity - I'm ready to pay strike dues.

Propblast

 

[BigShotXJTdrvr]

All that strike language is bluster because CAL realized the mistake they made when they allowed all their feed to be controlled by one carrier. You XJT guys have them bent over. Don't miss your opportunity - I'm ready to pay strike dues.

Propblast

That mistake is in the process of being corrected. CAL is building their portfolio.

 

[Propblast]

That mistake is in the process of being corrected. CAL is building their portfolio.

Yeah, I know. They haven't added any other than SKYW have they? Are you CLE based?

 

[NEDude]

If what Sam Fisher is a resonably accurate representation of what the CPA actually says, I think I'd be worried about the long-term affects of a possbile strike.

Consider that XJT does strike for 2 or more days.

If I understand it correctly the minute XJT goes on strike, the excusive rights to be CALs sole RJ feeder are gone. And when the strike passes its second day, CAL can begin removing A/C from XJT.

So the strike lasts 15 days. You get the Comair +30% you want (or whatever is acceptable to end the strike) and head back to work. As a couple of the clauses have been triggered, CAL then takes 40 airplanes and gives them Skywest (or anyone else) and takes over the training center for 180 days. The drop in 40 airplanes causes XJT to begin furloughs. CAL then begins to slowly transfer more and more flying to other carriers causing less and less flying for XJT.

In the short term you may get what you want, but the long-term effects may be negative.

Good luck though. I hope it does work out for you before the need to strike.

 

[Sam Fisher]

If what Sam Fisher is a resonably accurate representation of what the CPA actually says, I think I'd be worried about the long-term affects of a possbile strike.

Consider that XJT does strike for 2 or more days.

If I understand it correctly the minute XJT goes on strike, the excusive rights to be CALs sole RJ feeder are gone. And when the strike passes its second day, CAL can begin removing A/C from XJT.

So the strike lasts 15 days. You get the Comair +30% you want (or whatever is acceptable to end the strike) and head back to work. As a couple of the clauses have been triggered, CAL then takes 40 airplanes and gives them Skywest (or anyone else) and takes over the training center for 180 days. The drop in 40 airplanes causes XJT to begin furloughs. CAL then begins to slowly transfer more and more flying to other carriers causing less and less flying for XJT.

In the short term you may get what you want, but the long-term effects may be negative.

Good luck though. I hope it does work out for you before the need to strike.

NEDude,

I didn't make that stuff up. I copied and pasted it directly from the XJT 2004 Annual Report. It is quite accurate and real. However, it is also no different than what would happen if any airline goes on strike. Once a pilot group is released by the NMB to self help, that airline's management can "lock out" the pilots and do whatever it wants with their airplanes. As I said above, this "scare tactic" noted in the annual report isn't anything earth shattering. Had we never been IPO'd, the same end result could occur if we exercised self help. Heck, if Delta went on strike, they could replace their pilots with strike breakers (SCABS). Again, our situation is no different than anyone else's. It is a risk every pilot group must take to achieve the end result they desire and deserve.

Sam

 

[NEDude]

Sam,

I didn't mean to imply that you made it up. There just seemed to be some debate whether what was said in the annual report was the same thing that was in the CPA.

In my example however I am not referring to SCABS. I am saying that this could happen AFTER the strike ends. Meaning that once the clauses are triggered, CAL could wait until the strike ends, and then after you head back to work, begin to exercise their rights that were triggered during the strike. As it would no longer be struck work, there would be nobody crossing picket lines, and thus they would not be SCABS.

Again I obviously speculating as I don't know the details. But I would think this COULD be a legitimate concern.

 

[Obi-Wan]

Right now things are working as they should. It is completely normal for things to come to a halt during negotiations, it happens all the time from SWA to Delta. lets stop assuming on a public board and let the union do their job.

 

[vmc-hound]

I hope you are right because 10,000+ peoples jobs depend on "your" hopes or whatever... where are you getting your info on the cpa? do you know something everyone else does not?

nedude does have the correct idea regardless of what sam says...unless he can prove otherwise?

 

[Bjet Driver]

So the strike lasts 15 days. You get the Comair +30% you want (or whatever is acceptable to end the strike) and head back to work. As a couple of the clauses have been triggered, CAL then takes 40 airplanes and gives them Skywest (or anyone else) and takes over the training center for 180 days. The drop in 40 airplanes causes XJT to begin furloughs. CAL then begins to slowly transfer more and more flying to other carriers causing less and less flying for XJT.

Then I'LL take my 2 years of seniority and my $20,000/yr and say to hell with it. I'll get a job that actually has a future for myself and family. Maybe the difference between us and a lot of others is that we just don't give a sh%t anymore! As far as I'm concerned, XJT can either pay me OR SET THE PARKING BRAKES AND TURN OUT THE LIGHTS! I was furloughed for two years and I know there's more out there. If the company wants to pay me and my fellow employees what we're worth for flying around 40% of CAL traffic, then I'll be happy to keep on living the dream.

p.s. Spare me the "just be happy you have a job speech", because I'm not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[vc10]

Most of the CPA _was_ made public. Significant documents must be substantially reproduced in filings with the SEC. Some economic terms may be redacted (i.e. blacked out). The CPA was filed with the SEC when ExpressJet went public.

 

[AviatorTx]

The CPA is a piece of toilet paper designed to scare the pilots out of a strike, and fool the investors into thinking the pilots won't strike.

NO! We are not going to get Comair plus 30%. I am realistic enough to see this. However, unlike most of you caving pu$$ies, at least we will stand up and get Comair plus something. We will also get the work rules we want. Put me in with the group that is willing to strike long enough to put this POS operation permanently out of business if they are not willing to share the wealth. I'm phukking ready. Bring it on!

 

[Sam Fisher]

Most of the CPA _was_ made public. Significant documents must be substantially reproduced in filings with the SEC. Some economic terms may be redacted (i.e. blacked out). The CPA was filed with the SEC when ExpressJet went public.

Yes, some of the terms and conditions of the CPA was made public both in the IPO Prospectus (S-1 filing) as well as in all of the 10K's and 10Q's. You won't find a public copy of this document anywhere, including on XJT's investor relations site or on edgar. If someone does find it, please let us all know where to go.

At any rate, this has developed into a "mine is bigger than yours" pissing contest. The root of the whole discussion centers on the fact that yes, XJT pilots are pissed and yes, management will have to pay up, because it is going to be this pilot group that does move the bar north of Comair.

Sam

 

[Sam Fisher]

Sam,

I didn't mean to imply that you made it up. There just seemed to be some debate whether what was said in the annual report was the same thing that was in the CPA.

In my example however I am not referring to SCABS. I am saying that this could happen AFTER the strike ends. Meaning that once the clauses are triggered, CAL could wait until the strike ends, and then after you head back to work, begin to exercise their rights that were triggered during the strike. As it would no longer be struck work, there would be nobody crossing picket lines, and thus they would not be SCABS.

Again I obviously speculating as I don't know the details. But I would think this COULD be a legitimate concern.

NEDude,

What is said in the 10K is derived from the CPA and put into "simpler terms" for the investor/public. You are correct in saying that CAL could wait until the strike was over and a contract was signed to move airplanes away, etc. Of course, that would do wonders for our stock price, of which CAL still holds a couple hundred million bucks of. But yes, it would no longer be struck work and they wouldn't be called SCABS, but I'm sure our pilots would have other names for them.

Sam

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

I am aware that CAL can begin to take aircraft away during an XJT strike, but I'm not so sure they can do it if we are back to work after the strike is finished. The CPA is void after a 90 day strike but CAL would not last that long anyway. Maybe Mr. Blue Devil can clear this up? Anyway, if they start taking planes during the strike we can just refuse to return to work until all the planes are back. Remember the 400 furloughs Comair threatened?

 

[BluDevAv8r]

I am aware that CAL can begin to take aircraft away during an XJT strike, but I'm not so sure they can do it if we are back to work after the strike is finished. The CPA is void after a 90 day strike but CAL would not last that long anyway. Maybe Mr. Blue Devil can clear this up? Anyway, if they start taking planes during the strike we can just refuse to return to work until all the planes are back. Remember the 400 furloughs Comair threatened?

Mr Blue Devil is watching his Devils lose in overtime. I hate the Terps.

What makes you think Mr Blue Devil knows the answer to this question?

Honestly though, I don't know the answer to that question. I'd have to talk to our attorneys and their attorneys. My guess is that any "back to work" agreement would involve us getting planes back, but I have no clue in all honesty.

-Neal