CAL-UAL Anti-RJ Proposal

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Guys... think pragmatically....

The ML pilots are competing with the costs of outsourcing. If you can come up with a way to keep cost at regional levels and have ML pilots fly the jets at the wages you dream about... let's hear it....

What happens to all the ALPA regional pilots that lose jobs because of progressive scope changes. These pilots must have a place at the table. An abbreviated yet fair process to get them jobs at ML.

Under the current model, the regionals are the future of the Air Line Pilot profession. They will employer, train and produce the ML applicants. If the regionals are reduced and low time pilots are going straight to ML, the temptation to put these pilots into a 2nd class status must be squashed. In addition, the training programs and mentorship at the new ML model must change significantly...

 

[Skippy]

Yeah, Skippy said the spirit strike will fail. He likes to spend time on his knees in front of management.

I said the spirit strike would fail? please dont say stuff like that without proof--- ( now go waste an hour searching my posts)

i dont think so.

but i did say i thought it was ridiculous for a pilot group to go back to work not knowing WTF they had just struck for and what items in addition that they had "gotten"


You think everything is all roses over there--i think you're sadly mistaken.
hey i guess the majority over there just wants 4 days off bw trips--- hey congrats! you got it!--- but they lost so much for something so inconsequential--- personally, i dont think it was a win

it's very rare that a strike fails-- last one was NW mechanics i think--- they didnt think they could hire that many-- i guess they did.

i mean seriously, who is going to shut down the highest profitable airline in the country-- so obvioulsy they had some $$$ to burn to take it to the limit.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Dude- that's an ignorant sentiment- you need to stop chatting w/ the 5-10% crowd on FI
there might be some lifers that would resist this- but the vast majority at regionals would be elated to have rj's under the tent at the majors again.

Finally some LEADERSHIP out of ALPA-
and some leverage-= pro union NMB-
don't be so quick to wish for Obama as a 1 term president.

ARROGANT???? Elated to have rjs go to the majors? Really? Think about it those guys who have all their weekends off making about 80k as a 10 year rj captain....a lot of em not just 5%. Now they all go to the bottom and go to first year pay. Sorry dude arrogant, realistic, optimistic you call it whatever you want. I've seen 4000 plus mainline pilots get the hell beat out of em with furloughs at the expense of ALP while outsourced to pilots who will take low wages just to fly a shiny little jet with no experience, and then there is mgmt. Time to put it back on mainline property PERIOD! This is the only time we have to put this stuff back on mainline. I don't care how many RJ jobs it costs. This career is NOT about regionals its about the MAJORS.

 

[wmuflyguy]

I'd be concerned if I was at a regional right now. There's a huge movement across the majors to restrict scope further and eventually take it back. If we can do it, it'll change the entire industry. Bye bye regionals..........

Concerned? Hardly. I hope this happens, more chances for getting a job with better career progression, benefits, and schedules.


This proposal is not "Anti-RJ" it is "Anti-outsourcing"

 

[whatitdoing?]

Concerned? Hardly. I hope this happens, more chances for getting a job with better career progression, benefits, and schedules.


This proposal is not "Anti-RJ" it is "Anti-outsourcing"

I completely agree, but I also think this movement won't die anytime soon. Polls at CAL have indicated that scope is the number 1 issue far and above compensation. The union has said they won't budge on scope at all. The United folks have learned a tough and valuable lesson about outsourcing and I serious doubt that they'll make the same mistake again. They're even more fired up than CAL people are. They wouldn't have 1400 pilots on furlough and probably have a few more thousand pilots on the list. If we relax scope, it's over. They can have all the crj's they want, but mainline operates them with mainline pilots. I think enough people are pissed off and educated to move this along. So would I be concerned at a regional right now? Yep........

 

[Russ]

After all ALPA has done of late , you'll excuse me if I don't take this serious. I imagine you want a big pay raise as well as flying a jet that's designed around a regional pay scale. If it happens because of some strong armed tactic by ALPA, y'awl might want to update the resumes as the new UA will be back in the red. Perhaps a B scale within UA might work, that doesn't get anyones blood pressure up does it?

Posture all you want for increased pay for what you have left, it's the last, best option you have. If and when management starts thinking it's a good thing to bring all flying to mainline, I'll take notice. When the only talking is from ALPA I smile and chuckle. I also remember the the lions share of blame lies with ALPA to begin with in the not too recent past, assuming your over the age of 35.

 

[EWR_FO]

I imagine you want a big pay raise as well as flying a jet that's designed around a regional pay scale. If it happens because of some strong armed tactic by ALPA, y'awl might want to update the resumes as the new UA will be back in the red.

You realize there is a lot more to the operating cost of a jet than how much they are paying the crew, right? Take a look at the CASM of most 50 seat jets and get back to us.

 

[whatitdoing?]

After all ALPA has done of late , you'll excuse me if I don't take this serious. I imagine you want a big pay raise as well as flying a jet that's designed around a regional pay scale. If it happens because of some strong armed tactic by ALPA, y'awl might want to update the resumes as the new UA will be back in the red. Perhaps a B scale within UA might work, that doesn't get anyones blood pressure up does it?

Posture all you want for increased pay for what you have left, it's the last, best option you have. If and when management starts thinking it's a good thing to bring all flying to mainline, I'll take notice. When the only talking is from ALPA I smile and chuckle. I also remember the the lions share of blame lies with ALPA to begin with in the not too recent past, assuming your over the age of 35.

This isn't an ALPA drive, it's an individual major airline drive where the pilots are tired of seeing 25 ERJ's lined up for takeoff with 1 major airline plane. It's outsourcing and if there's economics to have 70-110+ CRJ's, we plan on flying it. It's not a CAL or UAL thing. We've all been burned by it, so you'll see it at the new UAL, DL, AA, and others. If we can get this done, others will follow and I truly believe the day of the regional jets will be gone. So I'd suggest filling out your application before I fill out mine.

 

[Furloughed80]

CAL's current SNB rate is totally reasonable and achievable for 70+ seat aircraft at mainline. I believe 50 seat jet aircraft will continue to decline. There will be a great deal of growth in 70-130 seat market. That's where we have to focus.

 

[waveflyer]

Rez=
really?
For years some of the posts you make drive me to think you're a management tool dressing yourself up online as a union guy. You MUST support this.

 

[waveflyer]

ARROGANT???? Elated to have rjs go to the majors? Really? Think about it those guys who have all their weekends off making about 80k as a 10 year rj captain....a lot of em not just 5%. Now they all go to the bottom and go to first year pay. Sorry dude arrogant, realistic, optimistic you call it whatever you want. I've seen 4000 plus mainline pilots get the hell beat out of em with furloughs at the expense of ALP while outsourced to pilots who will take low wages just to fly a shiny little jet with no experience, and then there is mgmt. Time to put it back on mainline property PERIOD! This is the only time we have to put this stuff back on mainline. I don't care how many RJ jobs it costs. This career is NOT about regionals its about the MAJORS.

That's really funny since the word I used was "ignorant"
haha-

yes, a vast majority-
what exactly is your background?
The best RJ job has erratic scheduling at best. Even when super senior- you're never guaranteed a great schedule.
So what percentage number would you feel more comfortable with? Every FO would support it- plus a vast majority of capts are biding their time for majors to start hiring.
Working at a regional- most know since ACA, and Wisconsin- and all the transfering of flying around- building up one operator to shrink another, then reversing it- that it's a roller coaster that is never secure.

Outsourcing has NOT benefitted young pilots- only delayed their chance to get to a major- and possibly caused a furlough or two for the middle aged pilots

 

[onewithwings]

PLEASE refer to the terms af agreement you signed before becoming a member of the BB. DO NOT use personal info on this board! :smash:

 

[wmuflyguy]

I completely agree, but I also think this movement won't die anytime soon. Polls at CAL have indicated that scope is the number 1 issue far and above compensation. The union has said they won't budge on scope at all. The United folks have learned a tough and valuable lesson about outsourcing and I serious doubt that they'll make the same mistake again. They're even more fired up than CAL people are. They wouldn't have 1400 pilots on furlough and probably have a few more thousand pilots on the list. If we relax scope, it's over. They can have all the crj's they want, but mainline operates them with mainline pilots. I think enough people are pissed off and educated to move this along. So would I be concerned at a regional right now? Yep........

I guess the reason I'm not concerned is that why taking back the 50+ seat market will lead to layoffs (most likely including myself) with relatively few 50+ seat aircraft out there (compared to 50's). I think (so take it for what its worth) that with the 50+ seat aircraft at mainline, the number of 50+ seat a/c will not be limited (arbitrarily) like they are now by scope...probably leading to significantly more 50+ seat planes being ordered and flying than their are now, leading to more jobs.

There will still be a market for 50 seaters, albeit down from the number their are now, but still a need.



Short term pain for a long term positive results. I'd be worried if I lived paycheck to paycheck and lived outside my means, in this career that is playing with fire.

 

[UALjan15]

What happens to all the ALPA regional pilots that lose jobs because of progressive scope changes. These pilots must have a place at the table. An abbreviated yet fair process to get them jobs at ML.

Same thing that happened to me when they took my flying away back in '03--furlough. And no, I'm not that concerned with their place at the "table." ML will need more pilots, they'll hire the regional Capts like it used to be, and then your precious RJ FOs can return to their jobs, only this time it won't be to a dead end career.

Under the current model, the regionals are the future of the Air Line Pilot profession.

Well Rez, I have absolutely no problem changing the "current model."

 

[David Clark]

Polls at CAL have indicated that scope is the number 1 issue far and above compensation.

I'd like to see these polls. Post 'em.