C-5 down at Dover (merged)

[simav8r]

T-1 Guy....you have mail!!!!!

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

One less C-5 to mothball...

They had some kind of onboard emergency but I don't know the nature of it.

CE

 

[cobraman]

One less C-5 to mothball...

They had some kind of onboard emergency but I don't know the nature of it.

CE

You sick person. I am almost positive I know people on that flight! Thank GOD they all survived. There is never anything positive about losing any aircraft.

 

[9GClub]

No seriously, why is a C-5 crashing on three engines?

This is assuming that #2 shut down, which of course is totally incorrect cause we're dealing with reporters, but given that it did and that there were no other extenuating circumstances, the accident is surprising. My understanding-- admittedly not backed up through experience, so gimme a break-- is that an engine out in a four-engine jet is one of the more innocuous emergencies.

I'll reply to myself because it's hard to get help from a lot of you guys:

"Yep 9G, there must have been extenuating circumstances.... we'll have to wait for the details because three-engine RTBs in C-5s historically have not turned out like this one did due to the fairly routine nature of the procedure."

 

[LJDRVR]

9G,

Your Monday-morning quarterbacking is coming from the standpoint of somebody without experience, but since you're self-effacing and humble, here's my take, minus any speculation.

Transport category aircraft, both civil and military have specific performance guarantees in regard to accelerate-go with an engine failure occurring after V1. Military FE's are extraordinarily well-trained compared to their civilian counterparts. It's unlikely that you'll see anything involving an error on the takeoff data card or preflight performance planning. The military briefs even routine flights to a degree you would not believe. Like any airline guys, this crew would have been simulator trained and proficient on a variety of abnormals including ones similar to what may have happened.

Unfortunately, there are simply too many variables and possibilities for anybody here to answer what happened. Even the mishap crew at this point is probably not aware of everything that occurred on the jet. Although aircraft performance is guaranteed, the margins are small, and there are abnormals that will kill even a competent crew that did everything right.

Here's an example. Some former colleagues of mine were departing BIKF (Keflavik Iceland) in a Lear 35. Full of gas and people. Legal. They experienced an explosive MLG tire failure 2-3 knots below the V1 speed for their takeoff. The PIC elected to abort. They did a 360 degree groundloop during rollout, skidding to a stop less than 100' from the end of a 10K runway. (With a much lower accel-stop distance for that particular takeoff.)

"Stuff" happens. (In other words there's sometimes a huge difference between what we real pilot get out of the jet versus what the test pilot got while collecting data points in the carefully controlled flight test environment.)

Does this help at all, Sir?

(I've never flown anything much bigger than 50K pounds, but the heavy guys on here will tell you the one thing they never want to see outside the simulator is a catastrophic failure involving engines or tires on a heavy jet close to the runway at MATOGW.)

Any of you FRED guys or gals want to pipe in here and help this guy understand why there's no such thing as a routine (read that easy to handle) engine failure during takeoff on the C-5?

 

[atlcrashpad]

Somebody upstairs wuz LQQKING out for them. Godspeed on a full recovery for everyone.

 

[RichO]

I sensed from a CNN report that they thought the fact that they crashed was because a reserve crew was flying, obvisously they must be really confused and on drugs..........I think I had more time than the active duty IP, and two fresh Lt's combined crewing a 17 I deadheaded on last fall........not to mention the total time of my crew (pilots) was approaching 18k (All reservists)......

 

[9GClub]

LR[EMB]DRVR,

Thoughtful post, thank you.

My apologies to those of you who fly jets for suggesting that powerplant-related emergencies are 'routine'...... didn't mean to trivialize them.

 

[eggman76]

Guess from Lockheed

More speculation for the fire.

I've read claims that on climbout #2 TR deployed, pilot shut down #2 and initiated 180 to land, #1 TR deployed on final.


BZ to the pilot for keeping everyone alive.

Eggman

 

[viper548]

The last C-5 crash was caused by a thrust reverser deployment on takeoff (Ramstein AB). The C-5 has also had problems with asymmetric flaps and slats. I'm just glad everbody got out OK

 

[SIG600]

More speculation for the fire.

I've read claims that on climbout #2 TR deployed, pilot shut down #2 and initiated 180 to land, #1 TR deployed on final.

Man thats just a bad day if thats the case. Like having one of those sims with compound emergencies where you think "there's no way this could all go wrong at the same time."

 

[LJDRVR]

I was just looking at the pictures and it occured to me: Thank god for the switch to JP-8. Twenty years ago you would have seen a totally different outcome when 250,000 pounds of JP-4 ignited.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Politically correct comment:

I hope the Air Force recycles for the environment.

(just think all of the beer cans that'll make!!!)

((enough to keep pilots drinking for a day....mabie two))

CE

 

[The_Russian]

Anyone got a crew list? My friend may have been the loadmaster on that one. I haven't heard from him and I have been trying to reach him.

 

[KCPilot]

Looks like the crew still had a little left in the "bag of luck" thank God. Someone was looking out for them and I'm real glad to see that all 17 walked away safely.

I've also heard it was an Active Duty airplane and Reserve Crew (must be associate) and they had an ANG deadhead crew onboard.

 

[bubbers44]

Kind of like the F16 fighter pilot with engine problems having to be number two behind a B 52 on a 10 mile final with an engine out saying Oh the dreaded seven engine approach.

 

[727Plumber]

Just my 2 cents.... The end result I'm afraid will be CFIT. First, the emergency was declared 10 minutes after takoff. Departing at 250 kts minus time to accelerate puts Fred between 30-40 miles from Dover. (Less SID departure turns etc.) The odds of the airplane being recovered all the way back to just 1/4-1/2 mile from the runway then losing control, almost 0 percent. (Could happen, just don't go to Vegas with those odds.) Second, from the pics I saw, almost no signs of scorching or fire from number 2 engine. Third, the right MLG was still intact showing a controlled rate of descent not high enough to destroy all the gear. Forth, my bet is maybe a 40 flap approach with weight around 725-750K with GPWS inhibited, with assoc loss of descent warnings. Fifth, I would wager the runway in question has no ILS or VASI, setting up the potential for a short appch. Finally, I would want to get a MET report to see how much available light there was and the general lighting conditions at the time of impact. This is just my first guess, and there is always the potiential of a multiple failures in the last five seconds prior to landing. From my experience it doesn't seem likely. Anyone else have a theory?

 

[Shrek]

How about just wait until the report comes out huh?

 

[RJP]

I was just looking at the pictures and it occured to me: Thank god for the switch to JP-8. Twenty years ago you would have seen a totally different outcome when 250,000 pounds of JP-4 ignited.

I can't imagine what the flashpoint is of JP-8 but it's amazing the thing isn't burnt to a crisp.

 

[Mmmmmm Burritos]

How about just wait until the report comes out huh?

Here we go again. These post-accident threads here are always the same. We have a few "glad they made it out alive" threads or "prayers to their family" threads depending on the outcome. Then one guy takes a guess as to what happens. Immediately you get one dude who likes to get up on the soapbox and berate the guy who took a guess and tell him just wait for the report to come out. Anyway this is the Air Force, there's not gonna be a public report n this one I bet.

You can't stop people from speculating. If you don't want to read it, don't read the thread!

So why is a C-5 called Fred? Does it stand for something like the B-52 and BUFF?

 

[Fins Up]

I was thinking maybe smoke in the cockpit so bad they couldn't see much inside or outside.

 

[eggman76]

More speculation for the fire.

I've read that #2 TR deployed, pilot shut down #2 and proceeded to return to the field, on the approach #1 TR deployed resulting in loss of control.


Eggman

 

[Limeyflyer]

The Plane beleonged to the 436th Airlift Wing, the active duty unit based at Dover, but being flown by a crew from the 512th Airlift Wing, a reserve unit.
There were two active-duty personel on board as well as 11 reservists, 10 from Dover 1 from Wright-Patt. AFB. Four Civilians were also on board

 

[lstorm2003]

#1 The object of the game here should be to figure out what happend so we can prevent it from happening again in the future.

#2 There is nothing wrong with speculation so long as everyone knows it is just that. SPECULATION!

#3 EVERYTHING is easier to figure out with the benifit of hindsight. Unless the pilot or crew was grossly negligent, NO ONE should be blaming them for this crash.

My $0.02

 

[Otto77]

i agree..i think we should stop speculation and crew blame until the facts of the case are revealed.

 

[lstorm2003]

huh?

9G,

The PIC elected to abort. They did a 360 degree groundloop during rollout, skidding to a stop less than 100' from the end of a 10K runway. (With a much lower accel-go distance for that particular takeoff.)

What does accelerate-go have to do with that scenario?

 

[340drvr]

F***ing Ridiculous Economic Disaster

 

[T-1GUY]

I am just speculating here... Two crews leaving leaving Dover... Probably on the way over the pond to Germany... Looks like pallets possibly up front... I am thinking a fully loaded bird at max weight... What is max landing?? Would they be dumping fuel to make landing weight??

Just incredible that there was no fire ball...

Thank God for this one!!!

 

[Limeyflyer]

They were going to Spain, and hell they were so overweight for any type of landing no wonder the thing split up. No ones fault here. What is the Max Land weight of the C5 anyways??

 

[ATR-DRIVR]

If you look at the pictures, on the news anyway, it appears that the gear had not fully extended. Unless they turned on impact, it looks like they were still pointing inwards.