C-5 down at Dover (merged)

[Limeyflyer]

Thanks for the landing weight info Rampfreeze, and good pics by Jayman. Those guys better be glad they didn't go much farther and hit those trees at the end of the field.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

We fly in to Dover a lot, glad to see that everybody got out O.K.

 

[Phrogboy]

One more update if anyone makes it this far into the post.

Everyone in the aft flight deck and troop is walking around today.... though not saying much. Most of the flight deck personnel (pilots and engineer) are still in the hospital with severe back injuries. Keep them in your thoughts and prayers. It is promising they will walk again, and with luck not end up behind a desk for any real length of time.

Obviously they smacked down pretty hard at a high AOA with mains absorbing much of the impact, but when the nose came down...

Here is something to think about though for those who don't know the C-5. Behind the cockpit there are two bunkrooms, and behind that is a row of seats on one side as well as a table with seats on the other. There were a couple loadmasters facing each other at the table on impact. That table is located right where the fuselage separated. One second they were looking at each other, the next they were staring at an open field with at least a 30' drop inches from their toes. They all managed to get out safely, either by the slide or by the forward ladder and then out the new ramp.

The fact that things did not turn out any worse really is a testament to the integrity of the C-5.

 

[viper548]

Tail 840059
B Model
Max TO Weight: 772K (840K emergency war order)
Max Lndg: 769K

.

The NORMAL max Lndg weight is 635,850. Loaded with cargo and fuel for Spain they were likely over 700K for landing.

 

[viper548]

Here is something to think about though for those who don't know the C-5. Behind the cockpit there are two bunkrooms, and behind that is a row of seats on one side as well as a table with seats on the other. There were a couple loadmasters facing each other at the table on impact. That table is located right where the fuselage separated. One second they were looking at each other, the next they were staring at an open field with at least a 30' drop inches from their toes. They all managed to get out safely, either by the slide or by the forward ladder and then out the new ramp.
.

I think i'll volunteer to ride in troop from now on!!

 

[afres bum]

The term normal for normal landing weights, as previously stated is only a limit on a foot per minute at touchdown... i.e. no assault landings above that weight! Simple ground affect would keep you above the limit from a normal approach when landing above normal weight. I assure you that a surprisingly high number of landings occur above the stated normal landing weight! Not a big deal.

 

[retired guy]

A friend at Dover emailed me last night with the following. Immediately after take off hit a massive flock of gulls. Number two stalled and was shut down. Declared emergency, started a return. All three of the remaining engines were coming apart. Hit hard, tail broke off bounced, a couple of times(notice the photos, no skid marks).on last impact, nose gave way. I`m just the messenger.

 

[jayman]

Seagulls

A friend at Dover emailed me last night with the following. Immediately after take off hit a massive flock of gulls. Number two stalled and was shut down. Declared emergency, started a return. All three of the remaining engines were coming apart. Hit hard, tail broke off bounced, a couple of times(notice the photos, no skid marks).on last impact, nose gave way. I`m just the messenger.

No offense, your friend is smoking crack.
I visited my friend in the hospital yesterday...no birds...only one engine shut down.

 

[retired guy]

Like I said, I`m the messenger...don`t shoot me....

 

[jayman]

Messenger

Not shooting...just my attempt at dry humor...This is nothing that wasn't released, but they were returning after #2 was shut down...the rest is still a mystery. We should have an official answer soon since the plane is relatively intact, we have the FDR and the crew can tell their stories. The gear really absorbed a lot of the crash. It was reassuring to see that the emergency equipment worked and that the nitrogen system that is used to remove oxygen from the fuel tank eullage and the fuel may have prevented a fire. In the local paper, the fire department said that there was 3 inches of fuel on the ground when they were trying to get the pilots and engineer out and they had to figure out a way to get the 50' ladder braced because the ground was "spongy with fuel"

 

[C601]

Some declassified pictures.....

http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/5158/di107727sb.jpg
http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/9974/tn327531er.jpg
http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/4041/vt573478jw.jpg

 

[FL420]

#1 The object of the game here should be to figure out what happend so we can prevent it from happening again in the future.

#2 There is nothing wrong with speculation so long as everyone knows it is just that. SPECULATION!

#3 EVERYTHING is easier to figure out with the benifit of hindsight. Unless the pilot or crew was grossly negligent, NO ONE should be blaming them for this crash.

My $0.02

I agree. In that spirit I will post verbatim the contents of an email that was just forwarded to me. I CANNOT vouch for the accuracy of the information and I DO NOT know the source:

From a C-5 pilot...He sent it to me with two requests: remove his name and send it to any pilot I wish. His reasoning was, if/when this is the official cause, maybe if other pilots read it it will save someone's ass. I agree.
----------------------------------

Hi All

This has really turned fascinating. A good buddy of mine was a (xxxxx) guy in the wing at Dover and still has connections. He gave me the current skinny on the crash--none of it official--until the board says so.

It was not a bird ingestion but a "reverser unlock" on the #2 engine that started this. They lost a C-5 with all aboard a few years back in Germany for the same cause. This crew however shut down the engine before an actual unstow took place. The airplane was well over 700K gross weight with FOB of over 300K. The airplane had the newest version of the C-5 flight deck with big panel glass. Unfortunately, only one of the three pilots was really comfortable with the new equipment and FMS.

The crew decided because of their weight to fly their approach to the longest runway, which unfortunately was only being served that day by a Tacan (fancy VOR for you civilian types) approach. They also decided to fly a full flap approach to keep the approach speed down. This isn't prohibited--just highly discouraged. The recommended flap setting for a three engine approach is Flaps 40. During the approach the crew became worried about not having enough power to fly a full flap approach and selected flaps 40--which they were now too slow for. Here's the point all you glass cockpit guys should sit up and take notice about. The one guy who was familiar with the new glass and FMS was also the one flying the aircraft. He became distracted inputting the new approach speed in the FMS. There was also some confusion about just who was flying the A/C while he had his head down updating the speed. Long story short--the got way slow and into the shaker, and actually stuck the tail into the trees and it departed the aircraft first. The nose pitched down hard and the nose and left wing impacted next snapping off the nose. Several cockpit occupants suffered spinal compression injuries. The guys sitting at the crew table behind the cockpit actually came to a stop with their legs dangling out over the ground.

The miracle of this was the left outboard fuel tank was broken open and none of that fuel managed to find something hot enough to ignite it and the other 300k. Again, a bunch of very lucky people.

So I guess there really is a reason we bitch at guys for hand flying and making their own MCP and FMS inputs.

Again, I am posting this VERBATIM and UNVERIFIED for general background only. Almost all of my C-5 experience is as a PAX sleeping in the back. I have however, experienced the pitfalls of trying to type and fly at the same time.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I received almost the same e-mail from a "Fred" buddy. Un-verified as well, although he flys Fred, he is NOT involved with the Dover unit so he cannot confirm either.

All that fuel....very lucky nothing decided to be real hot at the time.

 

[TankerDriver]

Does the C-5 have the ability to dump fuel?

Also, do the new C-5 avionics allow you to set up an "tactical FMS approach" to provide you with a backup GPS glideslope?

 

[viper548]

The C-5 can dump fuel.
The accident plane supposedly has the new avionics and I don't know what they can. Being a glass cockpit I'd like to think they'd have that ability.