C-5 down at Dover (merged)

[Deuce130]

F***ing Ridiculous Economic Disaster

I had always heard it stood for Forever on a RED X. Any C-5 drivers care to define it? I don't think I'd call the Galaxy an economic disaster, either. I think it's proven itself over the years.

 

[murdock]

looking for some advice!

One of the pilot's on the C-5 is a good friend of mine, I flew with him on Friday on a Lear trip, he's a part time captain for my charter company, as well a number of C-5 drivers. I tried to call the Hospital, the respond "we have no one here by that name". I went to the Hospital they refuse to let me in. Anyone have any advice on how I can get through to see or talk to him?. His father says the military is giving him a backround check every time he wants to visit.

I understand the military is closely guarded over the situation, I just wanted show that his friends and other pilots are glad that everything turned out for the best. Plus, he owes me 50$ for a late night in ACY(kidding!). Any help would be appreciated.

 

[fredflyer]

FRED does stand for F**** rediculous economic disaster. It has proven itself over the years, but initially, it had its problems.

If I remember right, the max RECOMMENDED landing wt. was 635,850 lbs.

 

[satpak77]

max landing weight

so what happens if you have a emergency and are above max landing weight?

You Land. Then what? Gear inspection, structural inspection, etc.

I think Swissair 11 (flight number?) discussed "landing weight" issues at length and wasted precious time getting the cockpit-smoke-fire emergency on the ground.

Of course, landing weight is not an issue for them at this point.

 

[727Plumber]

Can't land overweight in FRED. T/O and Land wt both the same. 769K One really nice feature of C-5.

 

[RampFreeze]

727Plumber is right, Max Landing Weight is the same as max Takeoff weight 769,000 lbs. (There is also a max wartime takeoff weight of 840,000 lbs, but this is rarely used) Fredflyer is also somewhat correct, there is a Max "Normal" landing weight of 635,850, but all that means is that above 635,850 there are some sink rate limitations for your touchdown. However, as long as you at least think about flaring, you've met the "normal" landing weight limitations.

I don't want to get into the crew proficiency/experience food fight, but I will offer this observation after having a few years of flying Freddy under my belt. C-5 crews are exceptionally well versed in handling in-flight emergencies because they happen, unfortunately, quite frequently. A guy from my squadron uttered the following words from the grass infield adjacent to the runway after a high speed abort, blown tires, evacuation, etc. on day 4 of a trip that was plagued with multiple malfunctions each day - "Why do we even bother going to the sim, we do this sh*t for real every day!" Of the 3 "heavy" airframes I've flown, my time in Freddy has taught me a lot about handling IFEs...

 

[viper548]

so what happens if you have a emergency and are above max landing weight?

You Land. Then what? Gear inspection, structural inspection, etc.

.

High chance of a brake fire landing near max weight.
Sounds like this is attributed to engine problems, possible multiple engine problems. Maybe this will light a fire in the Air Force's pants to get the CF-6 engines on the C-5.

 

[viper548]

I will also attest that reserve crew are very well trained. Most reserve pilots have airline gigs also.

 

[T2Pilot]

Those guys are going to wish they had died by the time they get through all the Air Force post accident baloney.

Not likely.

 

[jayman]

C-5 info

Look at the pictures very close guys http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/NEWS/60403023&theme=C5CRASH&template=theme ...I wont say what happened, since these guys are my friends, but speculation is healthy and free therapy, not blame, but speculation...talking about it helps us deal with the fact that some of us are rattled by seeing our invincible mammoth broken into pieces as we drive to work in the morning

Tail 840059
B Model
Max TO Weight: 772K (840K emergency war order)
Max Lndg: 769K

Time of crash was a little before 0645- sunrise 0645. LDG Rwy 32 has PAPIs no ILS
Wind 7kts, OVC010 to OVC020, 9999, DRY
They were heavy...going to spain. So they were over 700K which is considered heavy.

FRED F'ing Republican Economic Disaster ...mix and match the R.

When we used to airdrop, the Rangers called us "The Big Nasty"

The GPWS wouldnt give warning, not because of inhibit mode, but because the gear were down and locked, therefore you wont get the Terrain warning, just sink rate if over 1700ft/min below 300'AGL.

From the photos, the flaps were 40% not full and the slats were out. The TR's appear retracted on all engines, even in the photos.

The C-5 lost at Ramstein 16 years ago...TR's were never listed as a factor...ever. Although us pilots think otherwise. The sole survivor from that crash is still a loadmaster at dover.

God was looking out for those guys yesterday.

 

[Occam's Razor]

jayman, Thanks for the gouge. I got another C-5 question for you.

If you put a C-5 on a treadmill that moved at exactly the same speed as....







(I keed!)

 

[jayman]

Treadmill vs C-5

The treadmill would take the difference of where it is and where it was to decide where it wasn't and then compare it to the c-5's previous speed and position and speed and position in the future. This is called delta v, or in layman's terms, the treadmill would be faster.

Shabang!

 

[RampFreeze]

Very slight correction to Jayman -
Max Ramp Weight 772,000
then, burn 3,000 lbs during taxi and running down the runway,
Max Takeoff Weight 769,000

 

[satpak77]

discussion of this at BASEOPS.NET

http://www.dynamictruth.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?/ubb/get_topic/f/1/t/004513.html

 

[jayman]

You're so right bro

Very slight correction to Jayman -
Max Ramp Weight 772,000
then, burn 3,000 lbs during taxi and running down the runway,
Max Takeoff Weight 769,000

Rampfreeze,
Slip of the brain man...thanks
Jayman

 

[Limeyflyer]

Thanks for the landing weight info Rampfreeze, and good pics by Jayman. Those guys better be glad they didn't go much farther and hit those trees at the end of the field.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

We fly in to Dover a lot, glad to see that everybody got out O.K.

 

[Phrogboy]

One more update if anyone makes it this far into the post.

Everyone in the aft flight deck and troop is walking around today.... though not saying much. Most of the flight deck personnel (pilots and engineer) are still in the hospital with severe back injuries. Keep them in your thoughts and prayers. It is promising they will walk again, and with luck not end up behind a desk for any real length of time.

Obviously they smacked down pretty hard at a high AOA with mains absorbing much of the impact, but when the nose came down...

Here is something to think about though for those who don't know the C-5. Behind the cockpit there are two bunkrooms, and behind that is a row of seats on one side as well as a table with seats on the other. There were a couple loadmasters facing each other at the table on impact. That table is located right where the fuselage separated. One second they were looking at each other, the next they were staring at an open field with at least a 30' drop inches from their toes. They all managed to get out safely, either by the slide or by the forward ladder and then out the new ramp.

The fact that things did not turn out any worse really is a testament to the integrity of the C-5.

 

[viper548]

Tail 840059
B Model
Max TO Weight: 772K (840K emergency war order)
Max Lndg: 769K

.

The NORMAL max Lndg weight is 635,850. Loaded with cargo and fuel for Spain they were likely over 700K for landing.

 

[viper548]

Here is something to think about though for those who don't know the C-5. Behind the cockpit there are two bunkrooms, and behind that is a row of seats on one side as well as a table with seats on the other. There were a couple loadmasters facing each other at the table on impact. That table is located right where the fuselage separated. One second they were looking at each other, the next they were staring at an open field with at least a 30' drop inches from their toes. They all managed to get out safely, either by the slide or by the forward ladder and then out the new ramp.
.

I think i'll volunteer to ride in troop from now on!!

 

[afres bum]

The term normal for normal landing weights, as previously stated is only a limit on a foot per minute at touchdown... i.e. no assault landings above that weight! Simple ground affect would keep you above the limit from a normal approach when landing above normal weight. I assure you that a surprisingly high number of landings occur above the stated normal landing weight! Not a big deal.

 

[retired guy]

A friend at Dover emailed me last night with the following. Immediately after take off hit a massive flock of gulls. Number two stalled and was shut down. Declared emergency, started a return. All three of the remaining engines were coming apart. Hit hard, tail broke off bounced, a couple of times(notice the photos, no skid marks).on last impact, nose gave way. I`m just the messenger.

 

[jayman]

Seagulls

A friend at Dover emailed me last night with the following. Immediately after take off hit a massive flock of gulls. Number two stalled and was shut down. Declared emergency, started a return. All three of the remaining engines were coming apart. Hit hard, tail broke off bounced, a couple of times(notice the photos, no skid marks).on last impact, nose gave way. I`m just the messenger.

No offense, your friend is smoking crack.
I visited my friend in the hospital yesterday...no birds...only one engine shut down.

 

[retired guy]

Like I said, I`m the messenger...don`t shoot me....

 

[jayman]

Messenger

Not shooting...just my attempt at dry humor...This is nothing that wasn't released, but they were returning after #2 was shut down...the rest is still a mystery. We should have an official answer soon since the plane is relatively intact, we have the FDR and the crew can tell their stories. The gear really absorbed a lot of the crash. It was reassuring to see that the emergency equipment worked and that the nitrogen system that is used to remove oxygen from the fuel tank eullage and the fuel may have prevented a fire. In the local paper, the fire department said that there was 3 inches of fuel on the ground when they were trying to get the pilots and engineer out and they had to figure out a way to get the 50' ladder braced because the ground was "spongy with fuel"

 

[C601]

Some declassified pictures.....

http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/5158/di107727sb.jpg
http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/9974/tn327531er.jpg
http://img445.imageshack.us/img445/4041/vt573478jw.jpg

 

[FL420]

#1 The object of the game here should be to figure out what happend so we can prevent it from happening again in the future.

#2 There is nothing wrong with speculation so long as everyone knows it is just that. SPECULATION!

#3 EVERYTHING is easier to figure out with the benifit of hindsight. Unless the pilot or crew was grossly negligent, NO ONE should be blaming them for this crash.

My $0.02

I agree. In that spirit I will post verbatim the contents of an email that was just forwarded to me. I CANNOT vouch for the accuracy of the information and I DO NOT know the source:

From a C-5 pilot...He sent it to me with two requests: remove his name and send it to any pilot I wish. His reasoning was, if/when this is the official cause, maybe if other pilots read it it will save someone's ass. I agree.
----------------------------------

Hi All

This has really turned fascinating. A good buddy of mine was a (xxxxx) guy in the wing at Dover and still has connections. He gave me the current skinny on the crash--none of it official--until the board says so.

It was not a bird ingestion but a "reverser unlock" on the #2 engine that started this. They lost a C-5 with all aboard a few years back in Germany for the same cause. This crew however shut down the engine before an actual unstow took place. The airplane was well over 700K gross weight with FOB of over 300K. The airplane had the newest version of the C-5 flight deck with big panel glass. Unfortunately, only one of the three pilots was really comfortable with the new equipment and FMS.

The crew decided because of their weight to fly their approach to the longest runway, which unfortunately was only being served that day by a Tacan (fancy VOR for you civilian types) approach. They also decided to fly a full flap approach to keep the approach speed down. This isn't prohibited--just highly discouraged. The recommended flap setting for a three engine approach is Flaps 40. During the approach the crew became worried about not having enough power to fly a full flap approach and selected flaps 40--which they were now too slow for. Here's the point all you glass cockpit guys should sit up and take notice about. The one guy who was familiar with the new glass and FMS was also the one flying the aircraft. He became distracted inputting the new approach speed in the FMS. There was also some confusion about just who was flying the A/C while he had his head down updating the speed. Long story short--the got way slow and into the shaker, and actually stuck the tail into the trees and it departed the aircraft first. The nose pitched down hard and the nose and left wing impacted next snapping off the nose. Several cockpit occupants suffered spinal compression injuries. The guys sitting at the crew table behind the cockpit actually came to a stop with their legs dangling out over the ground.

The miracle of this was the left outboard fuel tank was broken open and none of that fuel managed to find something hot enough to ignite it and the other 300k. Again, a bunch of very lucky people.

So I guess there really is a reason we bitch at guys for hand flying and making their own MCP and FMS inputs.

Again, I am posting this VERBATIM and UNVERIFIED for general background only. Almost all of my C-5 experience is as a PAX sleeping in the back. I have however, experienced the pitfalls of trying to type and fly at the same time.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

I received almost the same e-mail from a "Fred" buddy. Un-verified as well, although he flys Fred, he is NOT involved with the Dover unit so he cannot confirm either.

All that fuel....very lucky nothing decided to be real hot at the time.

 

[TankerDriver]

Does the C-5 have the ability to dump fuel?

Also, do the new C-5 avionics allow you to set up an "tactical FMS approach" to provide you with a backup GPS glideslope?

 

[viper548]

The C-5 can dump fuel.
The accident plane supposedly has the new avionics and I don't know what they can. Being a glass cockpit I'd like to think they'd have that ability.