Bye Bye Woerthless

[KeroseneSnorter]

PCL resembles that remark very closely. Don't let his union bravado and knowledge fool you. He is the epitomy of what you described above by buying his job with that pft scab operation Gulfstream.

I agree with you completly about ALPA. It is broken and I believe beyond repair unless radical thought and change is implemented.

Rez is a lost cause. When you sift through the meat of his replies they all end up being the same theme. The elite in ALPA need to be paid these exorbetant salaries so they can weild their self proclaimed and imagined clout in D.C. Further, all the problems are the memberships fault for non involvement and there is no duty to lead by or set an example from National.

1st paragraph: Ahh that does explain a few things.

3rd paragraph: I get the same feeling, speaking with him is almost like talking to mgmt.

 

[Lear70]

I apologize in advance for how long this is, but Rez needs a smack-down.

Is a consideration of how others precieve your M.O. on the issues valid?

Hmmm, that’s funny. Later in this thread YOU accuse ME of being able to know what everyone else thinks. So, now that the shoe is on the other foot, EXACTLY WHO are these “others” you speak of that “perceive” my M.O. on these issues? You and LT10?

Not sure if you do listen. You seem to stand firm on the course of action you believe to be correct.

That’s because a.) the course of action that we’ve seen in the last 5-7 years has NOT worked, and b.) no one has provided a better alterative, including yourself.

The problem is... no one is taking that course of action. Why is that? Is the ALPA membership and/or leadership wrong and you're right?

Ummm, look again, genius.

The NEW leadership at ALPA is beginning to change. The new president’s own words: “a return to the hard-nosed stance of the past” (loosely paraphrased), is proof positive of that.

Again.. the course of action you suggest is not being implemented!!! Does that mean anything to you!

See above.

So, look closely and see who is out of step here. You and DW or the majority of the BOD and the majority of the people who take time to post here. Change is coming buddy, like it or not… "Does that mean anything to you"?

Have you contributed in CAPA-PAC? You didn't answer from my last post.

Yes, I did answer. You just tried to play dumb like you don’t remember our discussion of this from early last month which is what I referenced.

Again: No, I don’t support CAPA or ALPA PAC because, although some of their goals are good, there are several I don’t agree with and I won’t give money to an organization that may actually end up lobbying AGAINST something I believe in (age 65 increase is just 1 example).

I’d rather lobby my local senator or congressman AT THE LOCAL LEVEL on items I support. Isn’t that something you were railing about earlier?

90% of the other people? I didn't realize that you reprsented and spoke for 90% of the other people. Wow. Impressive.

I don’t, I’m just using the ratio of responses on here to draw a conclusion, albeit unscientific, as to how many people think the same way you do. Out of 8 or 9 posts of people voicing their belief in the need for a change of tactics (disagreeing with you), I see 1 or 2 posts of people agreeing with you. That’s pretty easy math there, buddy.

Ok Lear.. fine. How. It one thing to ramble on the message boards about your ideas it is another to convince others your ideas are valid and workable and then acutally implement them. This is where you fall off the map!

Says who? You? you’ve never asked for specifics and I’ve tried to avoid them because they’re lengthy but, here you go:

1.) Establish a minimum wage and trip/duty rig to provide the necessary fatigue and QOL protections that the FAR’s don’t address.
2.) Establish a SCOPE restriction that protects mainline jobs while allowing the airline to service the smaller markets that RJ’s were ORIGINALLY designed for.
3.) Establish a minimum retirement benefit through 401k / b-fund contributions that cannot be touched by management greed.

How? Through the exact way that you’re neglecting to mention when you try to remove blame from DW for the actions of “local” MEC’s.

The ALPA president’s signature is required on every single ALPA contract that is signed. If he doesn’t sign, it’s not valid. THAT is the power he holds. If a contract is brought that doesn’t meet these basic levels, it’s not signed. Period.

Local MEC’s still have the power to negotiate agreements BETTER than the industry minimum, but not lower.

If the airline can’t afford to pay it, they have to find the money from somewhere else or close the doors.

It may cause the demise or 1 or 2 carriers before the other carriers a.) get the point and b.) can effectively raise ticket prices due to less competition, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

Difficult times call for difficult solutions. If you can find a better one, by all means, let me have it. But again, THE VAST MAJORITY OF LINE PILOTS KNOW THAT THE CURRENT WAY WE DO BUSINESS AS A UNION ISN’T WORKING. (that was a shout). Find me something DIFFERENT that has a good chance of succeeding and I’ll be happy to think about it.

Actually, we tried to say no to concessions. But the pilot groups of NWA, Airtran, DAL, AMR, and UAL all said yes collectively via TA's and democratic votes. So as a minority, who is your issue really with? The leadership or the membership?

Again, if DW had refused to sign the new contracts, that wouldn’t have happened. He subscribed to the adage of “live to fight another day” that hasn’t worked for the last decade and won’t work in the future in our current political environment.

Don’t get me wrong, I think 2 or 3 of those groups were sell-outs in the face of profits starting to roll in, but the basics of who has the last card to play in the game (DW) doesn’t change.

Incidentally, it’s really pretty stupid of you to include airTran in that and shows how little you know of the concessions that were given here. If you really want to argue that, we can start a side-thread and I’ll let the rest of the airTran guys tear you a new one during your “education”… should be fun.

Riddle me this. If we say no to concessions then management will get the cost cut another way. Furloughs. Unions don't control hiring and terminations. So, if the unions say no to negotiate concessions managment will simply furlough more pilots. So the union can negotiate pay cuts so more guys can pay thier house note or do it the lear70 way and more guys cannot pay thier house note.

Incorrect, and again, very, very stupid.

If we say no to concessions, management will have to control costs by actually competing in the market place. Management knows (and evidently you don’t get it) that furloughing crews only works as a short-term measure unless you ALSO park aircraft and, if you park aircraft, you lose revenue-generating opportunities. Current furlough recalls have almost nothing to do with pay concessions and EVERYTHING to do with profits due to increased ticket prices.

Prater is one guy. What we need is more pilots particapting. What if pilots only gave thier dues money and that is it. What if pilots were very active showing up at rallys, picketing, LEC meetings, PACs contributions, etc.

The last couple picketing by the regionals I’ve seen have had pretty good turnouts, as have the rallies, LEC meetings, and other ways of getting involved.

Where is the effectiveness? Smugly thinking Prater is going to single handedly change this profession? Or getting involved in your career?

Is that all you can say? Pilots need to get involved with their career? You need a new rallying cry because those of us who HAVE gotten involved know better.

You cannot have EVERY pilot on a committee, trying to get involved in D.C., basically the entire group trying to run a local LEC. It just won’t work. The vast majority of pilots have 4 basic responsibilities: 1.) Fly safe. 2.) Fly the contract. 3.) Stay informed and let your rep know how you feel on issues. 4.) Vote responsibly for both you AND your career. Period. I believe the vast majority of pilots already do this.

The problem is on the National level along, as well as shared problems with the bankruptcy laws and courts and the people enforcing the RLA (including the SBA and its arbitrators).

 

[Lear70]

We have a national union to deal with national issues. Your quote above discusses what is happening to you.. specifically you. That is important. What is also important is what is happening on the national level and now in the near future, the international level. We have IFALPA for a reason. What happend internationally and nationally effects us all on the local level. Those effects are accurately detialed by you above.

You're absolutely correct. The 'national' ALPA should deal with the issues these carriers are facing. ALPA has a problem that it was trying to do everything and lost touch with their individual MEC's problems. Instead of fixing the issue, they turned even further to D.C.

Lobbying in D.C. is a long-term effort and should have its OWN branch of ALPA for dealing with it. DW got WAY to involved in the lobbying. He should have left that to professional lobbyists and shown up at important events to show his support and position and tended to the daily affairs (which was the demise of every major airline contract).

What was that you said about "would you rather have a pilot pretending to be a lawyer..."?

Right now, most ALPA pilots only know about local issues and what they know is often misguided. ALPA pilots must getinformed on the national level. the Capital hill issues. And now the Int'l issues too.

That's one thing we agree on: now that the airline contracts are gutted, the last thing we have to lose is foreign ownership and cabotage. If we lose that we might as well pack up and go home.

Again a job for THE PROFESSIONAL LOBYISTS, NOT a pilot. DW spent his entire tenure learning exactly how D.C. operates, just to get replaced because the rest of us were tired of getting screwed when he forgot us. THAT was the perception that lost him the election.

If Prater wants to succeed, he needs to "STAY INVOLVED" at the pilot level and delegate the outside work to PROFESSIONALS in that arena.

In addtion, Prater just accepted the same compensation package as DW minus 25K.

Which is how close to the salary he WAS making?

The issue isn't National salaries. the isssue is membership effectiveness.

Absolutely. The average member is completely ineffective because they have no control outside electing local LEC leaders and voicing their opinions.

All the "effectiveness" is on the National level with the LEC and MEC leaders and the president. Period. What they do collectively determines everything.

DW did lose a connection with the membership. But the ALPA national officers are polticians. just like your MEC and LEC guys. Do we want a pilot dealing with polticians in DC or a politican who understands pilots dealing with other politicans in DC.

Exactly. DW wasn't a politician. He was a pilot pretending to be a politician.

Eitherway, none of us should be fodder for the other.

That's about the only thing you've said I agree with.

Decimated contracts? Why is that ALPA Nationals fault? When the pilots on the local level authorized thier NC to engage. And when the NC delivered a decimated contract the local pilots voted clearly with a yes. Why does everyone overlook this and try to blame ALPA National?

Because the ALPA president gets the last and final vote by his signature. Because it was HIS responsibility to go back to the NWA pilots (for example) and say, "NWA is posting huge profits, let's hold off on this and analyze the need for this deep of concessions", and he didn't. THAT was his responsibility on the NATIONAL level and he failed.

HOW? Do you think DW couldn't or wouldn't? If he could then HOW. or are we blindly putting faith into Prater becuase he isn't DW.

Who do you see doing that? Most of the people on here are just glad that DW is gone because his policies DIDN'T WORK.

The rest of us are also glad to see Prater's more aggressive stance by his own words and, for the first time in many years, are hopeful for the future.

Change was needed... glad it came.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Your statements, specifically the ones about how "the problem is on a local level" only adds strength to the fact that we (ALPA) has a serious serious fragmentation problem. As I said before, and by your own admission above, we no longer have a "National Union" we have 50 or 60 local unions all doing what is best for them, which all put together is destroying the profession completly.

Back in the day this system worked for the most part, but back then we only had one seniority list flying per paint job. As it is now we have in some cases 8 or 10 MEC's per paint job. Clearly the stance that "National is for National concerns" is no longer valid. Unless we can bridge the groups together by strong, and maybe even more controlling, national leadership the profession will only continue to decay. There needs to be in place better guidance and possibly even some basic "Minimums" so to speak when it comes to negotiating contracts. Even something as simple as common payrates for all aircraft of specific types flown under the same brand name. I.E. All RJ's flown by United, or USAir are paid the same..regardless of which contract carrier is flying them, that would go a long way to avoiding the whipsaw that we currently have, Mgmt. would not be so hot on having 8 contract carriers if they knew they all had to be paid the same. Their ability to leverage one group against another would greatly decrease. In the old days when we had 20 or 30 brand names it was much easier to control a "minimum baseline" so to speak, as it is currently set up it is nearly impossible.

Will the above ideas work? Maybe, maybe not, but we need to begin to think out of the box here, mgmt. sure is. They come up with new ways to screw us daily and yet ALPA, a group that used to hold real power and influence in the industry has been reduced to a quivering mass of excuses and pass the buck mentalities. "It is a local issue" is a prime example.

Am I an expert in politics? No. Do I have all the answers? Of course not.

I am just a guy that pays dues, attends meetings, and moves metal through the sky from city to city. You know.........ALPA.....or at least I used to be, these last few years I have simply been reduced to a number in a disfunctional union with no direction. I have actually been removed from ALPA web boards simply because I was a member of a group that ALPA leadership didn't want to hear from (furloughed) Apparantly we asked too many questions of our local leadership and they didn't like having to answer for the decisions that they made.

ALPA is self destructing by following their current path, surely you can see this Rez, if not then you will be one of the ones sitting there among the decimated ruins wondering what the heck happened. Of course I am sure even then there will be a group of you saying "It is a local issue"..............

KS-

Good points....

Some of your points have to do with reaction to events. When times are poor all these ideas come out to fix the model. Well the model isn't necessarily broke, it just isn't being used....

My issue is effectiveness.

Prater is the new president and there is alot of hope that he will turn things around.

No one controls Prater except Prater. Only the EC, EB and BOD can influnece him. As an avergae line pilot I have very little or no control or influence over Prater or the the governing bodies.

The only thing I do control is me. My involvement. My particpation. My education.

• Can you tell me that LEC's are effective with only 5% the pilots coming to the meeting? And usually half of them are committee members!
• Are you telling me we are effective with voter particpation at 35%?
• Are you telling me we are effective with ALPA-PAC at 15%?

This is what I mean by it starts at the lcoal level. Too many ALPA reps at the local and National level are wasting time schooling pilots on why radical ideas are not workable! If they would just educate themsleves we wouldn't have to learn to walk and we could run.

This is my mantra and no one argues that non particaption is acceptable, yet they still argue that solutions lie with others and not themselves!

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Rez is a lost cause. When you sift through the meat of his replies they all end up being the same theme. The elite in ALPA need to be paid these exorbetant salaries so they can weild their self proclaimed and imagined clout in D.C. Further, all the problems are the memberships fault for non involvement and there is no duty to lead by or set an example from National.

More rhetoric!

I advocate particapting in your union to become educated and ultimately effective.

can you address this JP-4?

 

[XJohXJ]

That is because at the local level we are completely powerless to do anything whatsoever about whipsawing (except of course, fight concessions with every fibre of our being, which we are currently doing at MESAba). Yet, here we are in a 100% ALPA "family" of brand-providers. We need some national pressure to prevent other ALPA carriers from under cutting and otherwise subverting us.

 

[Lear70]

If the airline can't afford it, they shut down. If an INDIVIDUAL ALPA carrier is able to negotiate more, so be it. But there MUST be a MINIMUM wage base established.

Yes that is a great idea. Until *your* airline shuts down

Been there, done that, 2 furloughs, one airline shut down.

Like I said, I've started over 4 times; one more isn't going to hurt all that much more.

Well-said, XJ, glad SOMEONE gets it. Every ALPA carrier is protecting their own and screw whether anyone else gets hurt out of it and National isn't doing a d*mn thing to stop that AND THEY COULD.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

I apologize in advance for how long this is, but Rez needs a smack-down.

Gee thanks. Coming from you I don't know if I should grateful or insulted..


That’s because a.) the course of action that we’ve seen in the last 5-7 years has NOT worked, and b.) no one has provided a better alterative, including yourself.

And yourself.



The NEW leadership at ALPA is beginning to change. The new president’s own words: “a return to the hard-nosed stance of the past” (loosely paraphrased), is proof positive of that.

His website could've been written by a 17 year old running for class president. "It's time for a change" is the classic slogan. It means everything to everyone. You bought it...

See above.

See below.

So, look closely and see who is out of step here. You and DW or the majority of the BOD and the majority of the people who take time to post here. Change is coming buddy, like it or not… "Does that mean anything to you"?

See above.

Yes, I did answer. You just tried to play dumb like you don’t remember our discussion of this from early last month which is what I referenced.

Again: No, I don’t support CAPA or ALPA PAC because, although some of their goals are good, there are several I don’t agree with and I won’t give money to an organization that may actually end up lobbying AGAINST something I believe in (age 65 increase is just 1 example).

You're a smart guy. If everyone thought like you no one would particapte in thier airline careers. Nice example!

I’d rather lobby my local senator or congressman AT THE LOCAL LEVEL on items I support. Isn’t that something you were railing about earlier?

I highly doubt you have the ability and audience to lobby the issues of Air Line Pilots. No you are a pro at lobbying... You are a regular Leatherman!
Why not give to CAPA-PAC. We'll leave the flying to you and you leave the lobbying to the pro's


I don’t, I’m just using the ratio of responses on here to draw a conclusion, albeit unscientific, as to how many people think the same way you do. Out of 8 or 9 posts of people voicing their belief in the need for a change of tactics (disagreeing with you), I see 1 or 2 posts of people agreeing with you. That’s pretty easy math there, buddy.

Being a miniority on FI is intimidating. I feel so left out. Maybe I'll be ignorant and cynical to fit it...


Says who? You? you’ve never asked for specifics and I’ve tried to avoid them because they’re lengthy but, here you go:

1.) Establish a minimum wage and trip/duty rig to provide the necessary fatigue and QOL protections that the FAR’s don’t address.
No one has come up with a workable solution. Again sure Mach 5 is great but HOW. For the love of god HOW. Don't just say the idea lear70.. what is the detailed blueprint! This is where you remain off the map!!
2.) Establish a SCOPE restriction that protects mainline jobs while allowing the airline to service the smaller markets that RJ’s were ORIGINALLY designed for.
How. Schematics please. Broadbrush sweeping ideas are just that. MAch 5?
3.) Establish a minimum retirement benefit through 401k / b-fund contributions that cannot be touched by management greed.
Kinda like the AA guys?

How? Through the exact way that you’re neglecting to mention when you try to remove blame from DW for the actions of “local” MEC’s.

oh you mean someone else should do it?

The ALPA president’s signature is required on every single ALPA contract that is signed. If he doesn’t sign, it’s not valid. THAT is the power he holds. If a contract is brought that doesn’t meet these basic levels, it’s not signed. Period.

Doesn't work that way. Read the ALPA Admin manual. When you school yourself let's talk.

Local MEC’s still have the power to negotiate agreements BETTER than the industry minimum, but not lower.

And thier pilots keep voting for gutted TA's. Duanes fault?

If the airline can’t afford to pay it, they have to find the money from somewhere else or close the doors.

ewwww.. tough guy... and becuase you said it...it should be so!

It may cause the demise or 1 or 2 carriers before the other carriers a.) get the point and b.) can effectively raise ticket prices due to less competition, but that’s the way the cookie crumbles.

More tough guy talk. I like it! It is nice to pontificate the issues on the message boards with the luxury of not having the responsibility of the effects of the actions you call for!

Difficult times call for difficult solutions. If you can find a better one, by all means, let me have it. But again, THE VAST MAJORITY OF LINE PILOTS KNOW THAT THE CURRENT WAY WE DO BUSINESS AS A UNION ISN’T WORKING. (that was a shout). Find me something DIFFERENT that has a good chance of succeeding and I’ll be happy to think about it.

Something different? From the beggining membership pariticaption has been minimal. why not try some change? Why doesn't the membership get more involved? bad idea? Why?

Again, if DW had refused to sign the new contracts, that wouldn’t have happened. He subscribed to the adage of “live to fight another day” that hasn’t worked for the last decade and won’t work in the future in our current political environment.

Again, read the Admin manual. When you are educated we will talk. Are you saying DW should disregard policy? can you blame him for not?

Don’t get me wrong, I think 2 or 3 of those groups were sell-outs in the face of profits starting to roll in, but the basics of who has the last card to play in the game (DW) doesn’t change.

More tough guy. Tough guy doesn't work. It gets you what you want in the short term but it destroys long term relationships. But I fear you don't understand this...

Incidentally, it’s really pretty stupid of you to include airTran in that and shows how little you know of the concessions that were given here. If you really want to argue that, we can start a side-thread and I’ll let the rest of the airTran guys tear you a new one during your “education”… should be fun.

School me. Since you need schooling, so do I.

Incorrect, and again, very, very stupid.

Youre right. I'm wrong.

If we say no to concessions, management will have to control costs by actually competing in the market place. Management knows (and evidently you don’t get it) that furloughing crews only works as a short-term measure unless you ALSO park aircraft and, if you park aircraft, you lose revenue-generating opportunities. Current furlough recalls have almost nothing to do with pay concessions and EVERYTHING to do with profits due to increased ticket prices.

What do you say to the pilots who come to you and say why did you take a course of action that furloughed me when another alternative was available so I could still pay my house note. What do you say to that guy Lear70? Because what you are saying is UP YOURS I GOT MINE!

In addition the FO Reps usually vote against furloughes for thier pilots. So is your issue with the president of the FO Reps?


The last couple picketing by the regionals I’ve seen have had pretty good turnouts, as have the rallies, LEC meetings, and other ways of getting involved.

Yep..


Is that all you can say? Pilots need to get involved with their career? You need a new rallying cry because those of us who HAVE gotten involved know better.

Yes. Involved and educated. Are you saying the education doesn't work? Being informed on the issues?


You cannot have EVERY pilot on a committee, trying to get involved in D.C., basically the entire group trying to run a local LEC. It just won’t work. The vast majority of pilots have 4 basic responsibilities: 1.) Fly safe. 2.) Fly the contract. 3.) Stay informed and let your rep know how you feel on issues. 4.) Vote responsibly for both you AND your career. Period. I believe the vast majority of pilots already do this.

Agreed and no they don't. They are not informed. Of course you disagree.

The problem is on the National level along, as well as shared problems with the bankruptcy laws and courts and the people enforcing the RLA (including the SBA and its arbitrators).

So now DW is to blame for BK laws and enforceing the RLA?

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

You're absolutely correct. The 'national' ALPA should deal with the issues these carriers are facing. ALPA has a problem that it was trying to do everything and lost touch with their individual MEC's problems. Instead of fixing the issue, they turned even further to D.C.

National is four guys. Get real.

Lobbying in D.C. is a long-term effort and should have its OWN branch of ALPA for dealing with it. DW got WAY to involved in the lobbying. He should have left that to professional lobbyists and shown up at important events to show his support and position and tended to the daily affairs (which was the demise of every major airline contract).

ALPA does have it own branch. Get educated please. Be your own teacher.

What was that you said about "would you rather have a pilot pretending to be a lawyer..."?


That's one thing we agree on: now that the airline contracts are gutted, the last thing we have to lose is foreign ownership and cabotage. If we lose that we might as well pack up and go home.

And yet you won't contribute to CAPA-PAC. Do you see the conflict? Or do you have a ancedotal way out of this one...

Again a job for THE PROFESSIONAL LOBYISTS, NOT a pilot. DW spent his entire tenure learning exactly how D.C. operates, just to get replaced because the rest of us were tired of getting screwed when he forgot us. THAT was the perception that lost him the election.

Yup a preception. he didn't screw us, the pilot group doesn't know the value of having a politican on that level working for us... They want thier local issues and that's it.

If Prater wants to succeed, he needs to "STAY INVOLVED" at the pilot level and delegate the outside work to PROFESSIONALS in that arena.

You still don't get it. The Prez needs to do both. stay involved and lobby.


Which is how close to the salary he WAS making?

It is more I am assuming...


Absolutely. The average member is completely ineffective because they have no control outside electing local LEC leaders and voicing their opinions.

Wrong again. Get some more schooling. Maybe you need a tutor. Tejas jet knows the answer...

All the "effectiveness" is on the National level with the LEC and MEC leaders and the president. Period. What they do collectively determines everything.

You say you've done union work, but I wonder how effective you were/are. The leaders are only as effective as the backing of the membership. A member that lacks particaption takes the wind out of the leadership sails.


Exactly. DW wasn't a politician. He was a pilot pretending to be a politician.

You have no idea.

That's about the only thing you've said I agree with.


Because the ALPA president gets the last and final vote by his signature. Because it was HIS responsibility to go back to the NWA pilots (for example) and say, "NWA is posting huge profits, let's hold off on this and analyze the need for this deep of concessions", and he didn't. THAT was his responsibility on the NATIONAL level and he failed.

Where do you come up with this? Why do you believe this? Do you have a reference?


Who do you see doing that? Most of the people on here are just glad that DW is gone because his policies DIDN'T WORK.

No, most pilots are glad he is gone becuase they don't understand how effective he was. That lack of understading is his fault and the memberships fault.

The rest of us are also glad to see Prater's more aggressive stance by his own words and, for the first time in many years, are hopeful for the future.

You mean Praters agressive talk. The only thing he has done is secured DW's compensation package.

Change was needed... glad it came.

Change has not occured. Only the promise of it. the jury is still out. He may do well, but his website is big on talk and weak on a course of action. He has no blue print or schematic. he succeeded in gaining the preisidency by appealing to the masses emotions, exploiting DW's lack of connection with the membership and a political alliance at the BOD.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Been there, done that, 2 furloughs, one airline shut down.

Like I said, I've started over 4 times; one more isn't going to hurt all that much more.

Well-said, XJ, glad SOMEONE gets it. Every ALPA carrier is protecting their own and screw whether anyone else gets hurt out of it and National isn't doing a d*mn thing to stop that AND THEY COULD.

That is it? Just 2 furloughs and one airline shut down. Wow. Why is it I've had it tougher than you and you've got more negativity..

Nice attitude... basically what you are saying is.... screw a fellow pilot. "Who cares if your airline tanks and you lose your job. It happened to me. FCUK YOU! Your loss of job is critical to my success."


And here it is folks... the solution to our problems. The question is... who draws the short straw....???? Who sacrifices thier family, children and house for the betterment of the rest of us...

Who get to to decide who suffers while the rest of get better?

 

[Lear70]

All your rhetoric and you lack the basic answer that I and everyone else is asking as well as what your title under your name says over there to the left: "Fix ALPA"

How are you going to do that? Obviously it needs fixing, you agree with that, yet you haven't given one salient argument to show HOW you're going to accomplish that. All you can do is stand alone and try to say how great DW was.

Incidentally, yes, that IS how it works. I've read the by-laws, and on every single ALPA contract that's out there, ALPA national CAN and HAS THREATENED to refuse to allow its ratification. I gave you a specific example (Mesaba), and you're choosing to ignore it.

Just because YOU won't look that FACT in the face and debate it doesn't negate its existence.

Additionally, your correct that ALPA has its own branch of lobbyists. The point I was making (which you ignored to your own argument's benefit) is that DW got his nose WAY too far involved in it instead of leaving it to the professionals. He tried to become a lobbyist himself and it didn't help. Period. Argue all you want, you can't change that FACT.

Lastly, I never claimed to be a professional lobbyist. YOU are the one who started throwing that out there when you were out of salient arguments to save your boy DW's reputation (or what little is left of it). I'M the one who said leave the lobbying to the professionals. Got it now?

That is it? Just 2 furloughs and one airline shut down. Wow. Why is it I've had it tougher than you and you've got more negativity..

Nice attitude... basically what you are saying is.... screw a fellow pilot. "Who cares if your airline tanks and you lose your job. It happened to me. FCUK YOU! Your loss of job is critical to my success."

I never said that. YOU did. I am including myself in willing to take one to improve our career. Or did you miss that part, genius?

Not too swift on the uptake, are you?

 

[JP4user]

More rhetoric!

I advocate particapting in your union to become educated and ultimately effective.

can you address this JP-4?

Participation only can go so far. Stop blaming the membership for your failed leadership Duane.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Lear/Jp4

How can you argue or ignore that increased membership particpation is limited or inconsequential?

The solution while not entirely starts with more effective members understanding the process. These FI arguements are mexican stand offs cause I advocate greater involvment. You advicate better leadership.

You can't control the leadership, only your own actions. So if you want to see action.. look in the mirror....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All your rhetoric and you lack the basic answer that I and everyone else is asking as well as what your title under your name says over there to the left: "Fix ALPA"

Yup. I agree ALPA needs to be fixed, I just think the way to do it is change that we can control. Change the requirements of what it means to be an ALPA member. Not a spectator on the sidelines but a real active particapant. ALPA members have always been inactive. Time to take more responsbility for ones own career and stop depending on one guy.

How are you going to do that? Obviously it needs fixing, you agree with that, yet you haven't given one salient argument to show HOW you're going to accomplish that. All you can do is stand alone and try to say how great DW was.

I don't have all the answers nor do I prentend to. If you read my post I advocate getting involved and to stop claiming victim status. This is called walking before running. All of the things that you advocate require a much higher level of effeciency from the pilot group. They are way to misinformed and behind the power curve to go down your path or any path. So before they can do anything they have go to be more active.

I think we all have the answers. if we would start paying attention to local, national and int'l ALPA affairs we could solve problems together. Not by complaining and whining that one man hasn't fullfilled our expectations regardless of how real those expectations are...


Yup.. I don't have silver bullets like one sen list, one pay scale or a "national union" I don't have the answers and I shouldn't be expected to. and neither should you. What makes you think that you have the answers. These are 70 year old issues. Have we been waiting this long for a Lear70 moniker who has all the answers?!

Incidentally, yes, that IS how it works. I've read the by-laws, and on every single ALPA contract that's out there, ALPA national CAN and HAS THREATENED to refuse to allow its ratification. I gave you a specific example (Mesaba), and you're choosing to ignore it.

So, DW with all the info should reject the TA's that you think he should. I know plenty of TA's he has refused to sign, but he had logical reasoning to do it and counsel. What reasoning and counsel do you have? You just want him to reject TA's cause you are pissed or you don't think certian events won't happen like massive furloughs... again the luxury of no responsibilty.

Just because YOU won't look that FACT in the face and debate it doesn't negate its existence.

OK you're right and I'm wrong.

Additionally, your correct that ALPA has its own branch of lobbyists. The point I was making (which you ignored to your own argument's benefit) is that DW got his nose WAY too far involved in it instead of leaving it to the professionals. He tried to become a lobbyist himself and it didn't help. Period. Argue all you want, you can't change that FACT.

Or I could argue that you don't understand the value of this and see it as a negative.

Lastly, I never claimed to be a professional lobbyist. YOU are the one who started throwing that out there when you were out of salient arguments to save your boy DW's reputation (or what little is left of it). I'M the one who said leave the lobbying to the professionals. Got it now?

I agree. That is why I contribute to ALPA-PAC. I provide the ammo and they get to do the shooting.

Do you contribute to the PAC? Oh yeah You have "special" reasoning not too.. That is your MO. You say leave it to the pros, but the pro's need PAC money and you won't give. So how are the pro's supposed to fucntion? All talk no action. Just give to the PAC Lear... You gripe about your circumstance and when someone says do something about it (empower yourself) you have an excuse not to take action...


I never said that. YOU did. I am including myself in willing to take one to improve our career. Or did you miss that part, genius?

So you are willing to take the 100% paycut for the betterment of the Air Line profession... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Ok fine. Be a martyr. But don't expect anyone else to!!

Not too swift on the uptake, are you?

No I am not. Compared to your debate tactics, understanding of the issues and delivery I am not too swift at all...............:erm:

 

[Phaedrus]

Holy cow, John Travolta could dry his hair from the "Welcome Back, Kotter" days with all the hot air blowin' in this thread.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Holy cow, John Travolta could dry his hair from the "Welcome Back, Kotter" days with all the hot air blowin' in this thread.

I know....

I need help...

 

[Lear70]

Lear/Jp4

How can you argue or ignore that increased membership particpation is limited or inconsequential?

I never said that. Those are YOUR words. I also never said I disagreed with you that pilots in general need to be involved, I simply believe more of them are educated on the issues and are involved than you give credit for.

Increased membership participation (self-education and voicing opinions and desires to reps) is always a good thing. Just need to avoid that "too many chiefs, not enough indians" thing...

These FI arguements are mexican stand offs cause I advocate greater involvment. You advicate better leadership.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

You can't control the leadership, only your own actions. So if you want to see action.. look in the mirror....

We're just going to have to agree to disagree... again.

We can only take so much "action" as individuals in our MEC. Our leaders are the ones who have to actually accomplish the changes - all we can do is remain involved and push, plead, prod, and poke leadership to take action, INDIVIDUAL members have no votes, no control, except during contract ratification; the rest of the time were are powerless to do anything except voice our concerns.

Change occurs at the top where control is at. You know it, I know it, everyone here knows it. The only way for individual members to effect anything is to vote to change the leadership at the top. Period.

Like what happened at the BOD meeting last week.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Looks like Live to fight another Day is working...

http://www.aviationplanning.com/Forecast2006Highlights.htm

[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]Labor: The Next Major Challenge [/FONT]
​

[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]One of the emerging trends outlined at the conference is the pending labor challenge in the US airline industry.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]This time, it's not labor costs, per se, but the hurdles to attracting the professionals that the industry will need in the future. The post-9/11 cooperation between management and labor, while painful and at times contentious, has turned the industry around. That much said, as the industry recovers, which it is doing today, some of the sacrifices made by employees will need to be reversed, or else the industry will find itself in a world of hurt trying to attract professionals.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]This is already painfully obvious at the Small Jet Provider level. Pay and benefits are so low at some operators that one sometimes wonders if an orange jumpsuit was the employee's previous uniform. Service quality at some of these carriers has descended to the level that in some cases small communities are actually getting letters from companies stating they may not invest in new facilities in the region because of the quality of the air service. Not necessarily the level of air service - but the raw near-thuggery they witness or see passed off as "customer service" by some of these carriers. Point: airlines are becoming less of a career, and, at least in some cases at the SJP level, simply a stop on the burger-flipping circuit.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]At major carriers, the wrenching changes since 9/11 have indeed changed the industry, but at some point, those concessions made across the bargaining table will be under pressure to be reversed. The industry has changed, it is true. But to attract and retain quality staff in the future, there have to be incentives in the area of compensation. Keep an eye on this trend.[/FONT]

 

[Occam's Razor]

Rez,

Well done, lad.

Some of the trolls here are two dots below my tolerance glideslope, so I choose to ignore them. Others seem to think Duane is responsible for every ill in the industry. Naturally, they believe any gains achieved during his term(s) were due to stupendous effort by "cohesive pilot groups".

Duane lost the election because a few reps traded votes to get themselves a good deal. The Delta MEC were the big horse-traders. They surprised the whole BOD with a last-minute (previously unannounced) candidate for First-VP. That act put all the positions in play and deals were cut. It was ugly to watch.

 

[PCL_128]

I simply believe more of them are educated on the issues and are involved than you give credit for.

Sorry, but Rez's figures are accurate. The rank-and-file membership just isn't interested in attending Local Council meetings, voting on LEC Officers, contributing to ALPA-PAC, even reading the MEC & LEC newsletters. I'd be happy just to walk into the crew room and see at least half of the members wearing their ALPA pins.

Rez is exactly right. Change starts with the members, and the members can't effect change if they just aren't interested in getting involved or paying attention to their own careers.