Bye Bye Woerthless

[Lear70]

All your rhetoric and you lack the basic answer that I and everyone else is asking as well as what your title under your name says over there to the left: "Fix ALPA"

How are you going to do that? Obviously it needs fixing, you agree with that, yet you haven't given one salient argument to show HOW you're going to accomplish that. All you can do is stand alone and try to say how great DW was.

Incidentally, yes, that IS how it works. I've read the by-laws, and on every single ALPA contract that's out there, ALPA national CAN and HAS THREATENED to refuse to allow its ratification. I gave you a specific example (Mesaba), and you're choosing to ignore it.

Just because YOU won't look that FACT in the face and debate it doesn't negate its existence.

Additionally, your correct that ALPA has its own branch of lobbyists. The point I was making (which you ignored to your own argument's benefit) is that DW got his nose WAY too far involved in it instead of leaving it to the professionals. He tried to become a lobbyist himself and it didn't help. Period. Argue all you want, you can't change that FACT.

Lastly, I never claimed to be a professional lobbyist. YOU are the one who started throwing that out there when you were out of salient arguments to save your boy DW's reputation (or what little is left of it). I'M the one who said leave the lobbying to the professionals. Got it now?

That is it? Just 2 furloughs and one airline shut down. Wow. Why is it I've had it tougher than you and you've got more negativity..

Nice attitude... basically what you are saying is.... screw a fellow pilot. "Who cares if your airline tanks and you lose your job. It happened to me. FCUK YOU! Your loss of job is critical to my success."

I never said that. YOU did. I am including myself in willing to take one to improve our career. Or did you miss that part, genius?

Not too swift on the uptake, are you?

 

[JP4user]

More rhetoric!

I advocate particapting in your union to become educated and ultimately effective.

can you address this JP-4?

Participation only can go so far. Stop blaming the membership for your failed leadership Duane.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Lear/Jp4

How can you argue or ignore that increased membership particpation is limited or inconsequential?

The solution while not entirely starts with more effective members understanding the process. These FI arguements are mexican stand offs cause I advocate greater involvment. You advicate better leadership.

You can't control the leadership, only your own actions. So if you want to see action.. look in the mirror....

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

All your rhetoric and you lack the basic answer that I and everyone else is asking as well as what your title under your name says over there to the left: "Fix ALPA"

Yup. I agree ALPA needs to be fixed, I just think the way to do it is change that we can control. Change the requirements of what it means to be an ALPA member. Not a spectator on the sidelines but a real active particapant. ALPA members have always been inactive. Time to take more responsbility for ones own career and stop depending on one guy.

How are you going to do that? Obviously it needs fixing, you agree with that, yet you haven't given one salient argument to show HOW you're going to accomplish that. All you can do is stand alone and try to say how great DW was.

I don't have all the answers nor do I prentend to. If you read my post I advocate getting involved and to stop claiming victim status. This is called walking before running. All of the things that you advocate require a much higher level of effeciency from the pilot group. They are way to misinformed and behind the power curve to go down your path or any path. So before they can do anything they have go to be more active.

I think we all have the answers. if we would start paying attention to local, national and int'l ALPA affairs we could solve problems together. Not by complaining and whining that one man hasn't fullfilled our expectations regardless of how real those expectations are...


Yup.. I don't have silver bullets like one sen list, one pay scale or a "national union" I don't have the answers and I shouldn't be expected to. and neither should you. What makes you think that you have the answers. These are 70 year old issues. Have we been waiting this long for a Lear70 moniker who has all the answers?!

Incidentally, yes, that IS how it works. I've read the by-laws, and on every single ALPA contract that's out there, ALPA national CAN and HAS THREATENED to refuse to allow its ratification. I gave you a specific example (Mesaba), and you're choosing to ignore it.

So, DW with all the info should reject the TA's that you think he should. I know plenty of TA's he has refused to sign, but he had logical reasoning to do it and counsel. What reasoning and counsel do you have? You just want him to reject TA's cause you are pissed or you don't think certian events won't happen like massive furloughs... again the luxury of no responsibilty.

Just because YOU won't look that FACT in the face and debate it doesn't negate its existence.

OK you're right and I'm wrong.

Additionally, your correct that ALPA has its own branch of lobbyists. The point I was making (which you ignored to your own argument's benefit) is that DW got his nose WAY too far involved in it instead of leaving it to the professionals. He tried to become a lobbyist himself and it didn't help. Period. Argue all you want, you can't change that FACT.

Or I could argue that you don't understand the value of this and see it as a negative.

Lastly, I never claimed to be a professional lobbyist. YOU are the one who started throwing that out there when you were out of salient arguments to save your boy DW's reputation (or what little is left of it). I'M the one who said leave the lobbying to the professionals. Got it now?

I agree. That is why I contribute to ALPA-PAC. I provide the ammo and they get to do the shooting.

Do you contribute to the PAC? Oh yeah You have "special" reasoning not too.. That is your MO. You say leave it to the pros, but the pro's need PAC money and you won't give. So how are the pro's supposed to fucntion? All talk no action. Just give to the PAC Lear... You gripe about your circumstance and when someone says do something about it (empower yourself) you have an excuse not to take action...


I never said that. YOU did. I am including myself in willing to take one to improve our career. Or did you miss that part, genius?

So you are willing to take the 100% paycut for the betterment of the Air Line profession... riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Ok fine. Be a martyr. But don't expect anyone else to!!

Not too swift on the uptake, are you?

No I am not. Compared to your debate tactics, understanding of the issues and delivery I am not too swift at all...............:erm:

 

[Phaedrus]

Holy cow, John Travolta could dry his hair from the "Welcome Back, Kotter" days with all the hot air blowin' in this thread.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Holy cow, John Travolta could dry his hair from the "Welcome Back, Kotter" days with all the hot air blowin' in this thread.

I know....

I need help...

 

[Lear70]

Lear/Jp4

How can you argue or ignore that increased membership particpation is limited or inconsequential?

I never said that. Those are YOUR words. I also never said I disagreed with you that pilots in general need to be involved, I simply believe more of them are educated on the issues and are involved than you give credit for.

Increased membership participation (self-education and voicing opinions and desires to reps) is always a good thing. Just need to avoid that "too many chiefs, not enough indians" thing...

These FI arguements are mexican stand offs cause I advocate greater involvment. You advicate better leadership.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

You can't control the leadership, only your own actions. So if you want to see action.. look in the mirror....

We're just going to have to agree to disagree... again.

We can only take so much "action" as individuals in our MEC. Our leaders are the ones who have to actually accomplish the changes - all we can do is remain involved and push, plead, prod, and poke leadership to take action, INDIVIDUAL members have no votes, no control, except during contract ratification; the rest of the time were are powerless to do anything except voice our concerns.

Change occurs at the top where control is at. You know it, I know it, everyone here knows it. The only way for individual members to effect anything is to vote to change the leadership at the top. Period.

Like what happened at the BOD meeting last week.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Looks like Live to fight another Day is working...

http://www.aviationplanning.com/Forecast2006Highlights.htm

[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]Labor: The Next Major Challenge [/FONT]
​

[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]One of the emerging trends outlined at the conference is the pending labor challenge in the US airline industry.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]This time, it's not labor costs, per se, but the hurdles to attracting the professionals that the industry will need in the future. The post-9/11 cooperation between management and labor, while painful and at times contentious, has turned the industry around. That much said, as the industry recovers, which it is doing today, some of the sacrifices made by employees will need to be reversed, or else the industry will find itself in a world of hurt trying to attract professionals.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]This is already painfully obvious at the Small Jet Provider level. Pay and benefits are so low at some operators that one sometimes wonders if an orange jumpsuit was the employee's previous uniform. Service quality at some of these carriers has descended to the level that in some cases small communities are actually getting letters from companies stating they may not invest in new facilities in the region because of the quality of the air service. Not necessarily the level of air service - but the raw near-thuggery they witness or see passed off as "customer service" by some of these carriers. Point: airlines are becoming less of a career, and, at least in some cases at the SJP level, simply a stop on the burger-flipping circuit.[/FONT]
[FONT=Tahoma, Verdana, Lucida]At major carriers, the wrenching changes since 9/11 have indeed changed the industry, but at some point, those concessions made across the bargaining table will be under pressure to be reversed. The industry has changed, it is true. But to attract and retain quality staff in the future, there have to be incentives in the area of compensation. Keep an eye on this trend.[/FONT]

 

[Occam's Razor]

Rez,

Well done, lad.

Some of the trolls here are two dots below my tolerance glideslope, so I choose to ignore them. Others seem to think Duane is responsible for every ill in the industry. Naturally, they believe any gains achieved during his term(s) were due to stupendous effort by "cohesive pilot groups".

Duane lost the election because a few reps traded votes to get themselves a good deal. The Delta MEC were the big horse-traders. They surprised the whole BOD with a last-minute (previously unannounced) candidate for First-VP. That act put all the positions in play and deals were cut. It was ugly to watch.

 

[PCL_128]

I simply believe more of them are educated on the issues and are involved than you give credit for.

Sorry, but Rez's figures are accurate. The rank-and-file membership just isn't interested in attending Local Council meetings, voting on LEC Officers, contributing to ALPA-PAC, even reading the MEC & LEC newsletters. I'd be happy just to walk into the crew room and see at least half of the members wearing their ALPA pins.

Rez is exactly right. Change starts with the members, and the members can't effect change if they just aren't interested in getting involved or paying attention to their own careers.