Busted Checkride - How to Explain?

[psunder]

Update:

Looks like a couple of friends currently working for the organization at which I was refused employment are going to bat for me... just what I needed, someone to explain the situation WITHOUT making me seem like I am not owning up.

 

[siucavflight]

I have not ever heard of anyone caring. What company bounced you because of your pass rate?

 

[L'il J.Seinfeld]

Wow. No offense, but do you not see a trend? You need to get yourself a track record of success. Get it out of your head that you failed only because the evaluator was hard. You failed because your skills are not where they should be. You'll never get hired if you pull crap like saying it was because you chose the wrong examiner. That's a cop out. You had better do whatever is necessary to ace any checkride you have the rest of your flying career or you won't have one. Just being honest.

 

[psunder]

Wow. No offense, but do you not see a trend? You need to get yourself a track record of success.

I have one, my student pass ratio is superb... a bust is more a refection on the instructor than the student. Outside my PPL I never received ANY ground from my instructor.

Get it out of your head that you failed only because the evaluator was hard.

Incorrect, you need to know the examiner I went with. I have been referred to as "crazy" and "masochistic" for my choice in examiners. This mans pass rate is about 50%.... now you tell me how many checkride you would have bused had you failed 50% of them?

You failed because your skills are not where they should be.

I fly as well and know as much as ANY pilot of similar experience you will find, period.

You'll never get hired if you pull crap like saying it was because you chose the wrong examiner.

Interestingly, I did get hired... and I said exactly that, moreover my boss (who deals with this DPE daily) agrees with ME


I chose the examiner I chose because I WANTED the checkrides to be hard. I studied more and knew more than nearly ANY of my contemporaries and I wanted to test myself. I knew full and well what I was getting myself into so I agree these busts are MY FAULT.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

My question is, how would one suggest I go about establishing to potential employers that my pass rate is a sign of my seeking excellence and not the easy road?

- busted my MEI (initial) on not knowing how to use manual E6B (knew how to use electronic)

If you are going to say you are not seeking the easy road, I would leave this one out.:0

 

[psunder]

If you are going to say you are not seeking the easy road, I would leave out this one.

Ok, i will give you a test (the exact same question I had), tell me how to do "short-time" problems on you E6B?

I didn't know and neither did ANYONE I asked with the exception of the cheif flight instructor (who was the one who signed me off). In addtion, the PTS does NOT require me to know how to use a manual E6B, only that I can teach it using some method (ie. electronic E6B)

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Not even sure what a "short-time" problem is. But if it has anything to do with how long it will take me to get to point A, I just look on the FMS.

 

[jetfo]

I must not be bright enough to get this. You are doing everything the hard way why?!?!?

It is great to pursue excellence, what you have pursued is self defeating.
Life is hard enough, don't try to do it the hard way. There is no point to it. Is there something you have to prove to yourself?

If you want to know everything there is to aviation, read books and learn from others that know more. Torturing yourself isn't the road to excellence.

 

[atlcrashpad]

Busted ride

My story is I showed for my Comm SEL with a "Sporty's" E6B (Electric). The examiner said "Your batteries just died" I pulled a fresh pack out of my bag, he said "those are expired and dead too". After I pulled a total of 6 packs of 4 AAA batteries, he gave up and let me use my "Sporty's" E6B.

I then f*cked up the holding entry and was give the option to "continue or stop now and re do the only failed portion later" I chose to continue. Obvious I was under super pressure, but I did flawless on the rest. As we parked and I was getting out, I mentioned that since this was a commercial add on to my Comm R/W, holding was not required by PTS. He looked it up and I was right. He made me go back out and re-enter holding to make sure I knew how to do it. I did exactly what I should have done on the first attempt. He was more than fair and was considered one of the hardest in the area.

 

[psunder]

Not even sure what a "short-time" problem is. But if it has anything to do with how long it will take me to get to point A, I just look on the FMS.

Answer:

Instead of using "60" for rate, use "36" becasue there are 3600 seconds in an hour, then the "B" scale is in seconds (instead of minutes) and the "C" scale is in minutes (instead of hours)

 

[Fly_Chick]

As we parked and I was getting out, I mentioned that since this was a commercial add on to my Comm R/W, holding was not required by PTS. He looked it up and I was right. He made me go back out and re-enter holding to make sure I knew how to do it. I did exactly what I should have done on the first attempt. He was more than fair and was considered one of the hardest in the area.

Did you enter the hold a second time on the check-ride or did he just want you to go out and enter it by yourself or with and instructor?

Curiously, as it is not required by PTS, under which Area of Operation was he going to classify the bust?

 

[atlcrashpad]

Holding

He was going to bust me on holding. I held on the wrong side of the fix. I went right back out with him that afternoon. He was satisfied and I've never forgotten my mistake. No Bust. PTS did not require holding if you had an instrument rating in another catagory. ie. I had a comm R/W with instrument and was adding comm SEL w/ instrument.

 

[WhiteCloud]

For interview purposes you answer honestly. If asked it's usually something like..."Have you ever busted a checkride" You can pick one of your busts that you take credit for and say "Well, I blew X on the CFI checkride so I had to go up again and redo it. I knew how to do it but I was nervous and lost my concentration. Everything else went well and I retook that portion of the test the next week and got the certificate." Be honest but don't recite all the busts unless directly asked. They'll probably move on to other things since the goal of the question is to find out if you accept responsibility and not necesarily to determine if you're superpilot.

 

[banned username 1]

Let me give you some perspective from the standpoint of a person who used to give pilot interviews- and that of a flight instructor too.

Even the best pilots have busted check rides. An interviewer is looking for somebody who takes the adult attitude toward that sort of thing, takes full responsibility for it, makes it right and learns from it and moves on.

Let's take a look at the situation as you've described it. You've failed MULTIPLE check rides. One failure- hey it happens, two- wow, unlucky, but the number that you're talking about would raise an eyebrow (if they even ask you at all). Failing a checkride isn't the end of the world, but pilots, being egotists, usually make doubly-sure that that sort of thing doesn't happen again- almost to a fault. It's embarassing.

Where there's smoke, there's fire, and you're describing something smoking here. You started out by laying out the facts, but then when somebody made an honest critique and opined on your situation, you got defensive. I'm seeing the red flag from something that you never even considered. Since I don't have the luxury of getting to know you for an hour or so, that's all I'll say on that subject.

Next, don't blame your failures on your instructor. It's a shared responsibility of you both. I had to laugh about the E6-B thing because although it's old-school, you should be able to use it- and weren't you an instructor already? Your instructor is supposed to get you ready to pass a check ride. That includes the oral. Any instructor should pretty much know the scenario that the examiner uses and not only prepare you based on the checkride guide, but extra emphasis for particulars that the specific examiner hits. But he's only human and not a mind reader- if he truly prepared you for every possible situation and question, your training would cost four times what it does already. YOU have to share the responsibility for learning and retaining what you've learned. If you don't feel like you can be the best applicant the examiner has ever seen, then you're not ready. Easy as that.

Back to your question. You need to give yourself some introspection. If the question ever comes up, and it was required to be asked of every applicant I interviewed, you'd better have an adult, cogent response. If you haven't really sat down and asked what are the underlying, common threads that connect all of the checkride failures and what have I done to address them, you will fail the interview. Sorry, it's the truth. Nothing is easier to detect than insincerity and you better believe what it is that you're telling the interviewer. They've seen and heard it all- don't BS them.

You wanted opinions. Here's mine. It's worth what you paid for it. IMHO, if you take my advice and get to the root of the problem, you won't fail another ride. If you handle the situation like an adult, who has learned something about himself and has made definite, positive steps to change, it will be a non-event on an interview.

Good luck.

 

[Ralgha]

I have one, my student pass ratio is superb... a bust is more a refection on the instructor than the student. Outside my PPL I never received ANY ground from my instructor.

Actually, 4 busts, 3 of which were in a row, is not a good track record. A bust is SOMETIMES a reflection on the instructor, and sometimes on the student. If any of your instructors after PPL said word one about anything you did or would do, then you did get ground from them.

Incorrect, you need to know the examiner I went with. I have been referred to as "crazy" and "masochistic" for my choice in examiners. This mans pass rate is about 50%.... now you tell me how many checkride you would have bused had you failed 50% of them?

If you thought what he did was unfair, then you should have taken it up with the FSDO. If not, then you're just making excuses.

I fly as well and know as much as ANY pilot of similar experience you will find, period.

Funny. You wouldn't have busted a single one of those checkrides where this true.

I agree these busts are MY FAULT.

Quite obviously you don't, since you referred to the examiner as hard. If you truely took responsibility, you wouldn't have said a word about the examiner.

 

[Lead Sled]

What's an E6B?

For what it's worth, no one cares how hard your examiners were or how high your personal standards are. On paper it appears that you have busted nearly every checkride you've ever taken. That's going to be difficult to explain away in some circles.

Personally, I can understand where you're coming from, but in the grand scheme of things all that really matters is that you have those certificates in your pocket - unless you can show me on your certificates where it says that you took your ride with an "extraordinarily" difficult DPE.

One other thing, I always get a little concerned whenever I hear pilots talk about how good they are compared to everyone else. However, there's a little of that going around - from time to time we hear from a certain T182RG pilot how how well he flies in ice.

Get off of your high horse, you've got to get your experience one hour at a time just like everyone else.

'Sled

 

[psunder]

Actually, 4 busts, 3 of which were in a row, is not a good track record. A bust is SOMETIMES a reflection on the instructor, and sometimes on the student. If any of your instructors after PPL said word one about anything you did or would do, then you did get ground from them.

Agreed, that is not a good track record (actually, I was talking about MY students) however, neither would a 100% pass rate with examiners who’s idea of an oral is to ask you what you want to talk about and BSing about his moony and classic cars for 2 hours. My choice to excel (which by literally ALL standards except for checkrides I have) and to challenge myself is unfortunately not reflected in my pass rate. All I am looking for is suggestions on how to off-set this.

If you thought what he did was unfair, then you should have taken it up with the FSDO. If not, then you're just making excuses.

I never said he was unfair... he was just very difficult (by his own admission).

Funny. You wouldn't have busted a single one of those checkrides where this true.

Simply untrue. For six people I know of at my flight school the ONLY checkride they ever busted was the ONLY time they ever took this examiner... that’s a fact. As for my initial (MEI) with the FSDO, NO ONE from our school has EVER passed an initial checkride with this man.

Quite obviously you don't, since you referred to the examiner as hard. If you truly took responsibility, you wouldn't have said a word about the examiner

Once again, incorrect. I AM TAKING RESPONSIBILITY, the only thing I am saying is that I would not (as a categorical fact) have busted but maybe one checkride had I chosen different examiners. So, yes I SCREWED UP, however... that would not have cost me a bust with other examiners. Let me say that again, I SCREWED UP, I leaned from that, and I am as good an instructor as you will find today because of it with a student pass rate that is far more a reflection of my abilities than what before essentially amounted to a test of how well I trained myself since my instructor never did a dang thing but milk me for time (I pretty much taught myself from the multi-private up).

 

[Bjammin]

Dude, Chill out!!
These guys are only giving their opinions based on what you wrote, and from my point of view I agree with most of them. I have taken many upon many checkrides and have busted one or two, but I would NEVER blame the instructor no matter how hard he was supposed to be. By the way you have descibed this so far it truly does not sound like you prepared yourself correctly for this particular guy. Did you seach out others that had him for the same checkrides and get some gouge? Did you study the PTS and know how discuss every subject in there? Knowing how to use an E6B for checkrides has always been standard practice, at least I thought it was. You should have know the valid period of a TAF for a checkride and should know when and when to not use a procedure turn. IP's can teach the wrong thing from time to time. It is up to you to validate what they teach you with some simple research. Almost everything to do with flying you can read in a book. I view instructors as someone to teach you flying techniques, help you practice, and make sure you don't kill yourself. All the rest is up to you.

I understand the need to challenge yourself and good on you for wanting to do that, but don't use that as an excuse in this case. If you are looking for an airline job and only if you are asked, I would explain exactly how you failed each checkride using the least amount of words possible, be humble in your answer, and explain what you learned.
What kind of job are you going for anyway? Give us some more insight and maybe we won't be so harsh.

 

[TimsKeeper]

Seek Help!

If you "chose" the harder examiner why are you trying to justify it now? Too late....you failed, deal with it.

You need to pass the PTS not the examiner. You made a bad decision to not reconsider examiners after the first failure.

As far as your students go, it means nothing that they are passing their checkrides when it comes to your career down the road. You failed your checkrides, that is what sticks to your resume. Also, not that it matters, are your students going to this "hard" examiner too? I doubt it.

Instead of worrying about your past...worry about your future. You ask for some advice, then jump down the responders throat! Excuse, excuse, excuse.

Stop typing and just listen to what some of these nice people are trying to offer you.

 

[landlover]

Agreed, that is not a good track record (actually, I was talking about MY students) however, neither would a 100% pass rate with examiners who’s idea of an oral is to ask you what you want to talk about and BSing about his moony and classic cars for 2 hours. My choice to excel (which by literally ALL standards except for checkrides I have) and to challenge myself is unfortunately not reflected in my pass rate. All I am looking for is suggestions on how to off-set this.



I never said he was unfair... he was just very difficult (by his own admission).



Simply untrue. For six people I know of at my flight school the ONLY checkride they ever busted was the ONLY time they ever took this examiner... that’s a fact. As for my initial (MEI) with the FSDO, NO ONE from our school has EVER passed an initial checkride with this man.



[COLO

Based on your description of this easy DPE and your profile im guessing you went to the Aviator. The easy DPE being crazy Bill Corcoran? And the difficult one being Bill Ball. If this is true let me tell you, I went to the Aviator and passed every single checkride first attempt with Bill Ball. 2nd I know of 3-4 guys that also did this. Also Bill Corcoran does fail applicants, I've seen it. Is Max still doing rides? I used him mostly for my students when I was instructing. Finally people from the Aviator have passed at the FSDO on the first try.

 

[lowslow]

So, eh, how long is a TAF good for?

You tend to forget these things after awhile anyway.

 

[siucavflight]

I have one, my student pass ratio is superb... a bust is more a refection on the instructor than the student. Outside my PPL I never received ANY ground from my instructor.



Incorrect, you need to know the examiner I went with. I have been referred to as "crazy" and "masochistic" for my choice in examiners. This mans pass rate is about 50%.... now you tell me how many checkride you would have bused had you failed 50% of them?

Now the excuses are kicking in and I see why this would be a problem on an interview. Remember IT IS YOUR FAULT. Dont blame the instructor, dont blame the examiner, IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT.

By the way, if I failed 50% of my checkrides, I would be looking for a new career as I would not trust myself in an airplane. But luckily I have not busted 1.

 

[KigAir]

So, eh, how long is a TAF good for?

You tend to forget these things after awhile anyway.

Till the next one is issued?

 

[lowslow]

That's what I thought, as in valid for the time it says it's valid for? But I'm sure there is a real, short answer here somewhere.

 

[LavMan]

Nobody is perfect. We are only human. It doesn't make you a better or worse pilot. Thier are many things people are good at besides flying when it comes to getting a job. Character, personality, social skills. Just another side of it to look at.

 

[Bjammin]

There are really 2 TAF's a 24 hour and a 9 hour. The 9 hour is mostly used over seas.
The date and validity is on the TAF itself. It will read something like "111150 111212" meaning the TAF was made on the 11th at 1150Z and is valid from 1200Z on the 11th until 1200Z on the 12th, ie 24hrs.

 

[TIS]

Simply untrue. For six people I know of at my flight school the ONLY checkride they ever busted was the ONLY time they ever took this examiner... that’s a fact. As for my initial (MEI) with the FSDO, NO ONE from our school has EVER passed an initial checkride with this man.

I think you've stumbled on to the most important thing you've missed. You've referred to your school and the bust rate of folks associated with it.

You're being sent a message both by a DPE and by the FAA proper as I understand it. How 'bout you pay attention!

And antoher thing, if you bust a private pilot checkride, okay, maybe there's some blame for the instructor. Instrument? Yeah probably there too. Commercial? Nope! You're a licensed pilot applying to become a PROFESSIONAL pilot. It's your gig to screw up not the instructor's.

CFI? CFI candidates do not fail simply because they go to the FAA for their test. They fail because they are ILL PREPARED for the test they will be given. I have signed off 17 initial CFI applicants and another 25 additional instructor endorsements. Know what? Not a SINGLE ONE ever failed - not with the FAA and not with a DPE - ever.

Look, I don't know you but I know you're in a hurry - that's why you're at a school. What's your hurry? The paycheck isn't bigger if you get there faster. On the other hand, your lack of experience can become a liability if you "live the dream" too quickly. One has only to look at a recent accident on a CRJ to know this.

I AM TAKING RESPONSIBILITY, the only thing I am saying is that I would not (as a categorical fact) have busted but maybe one checkride had I chosen different examiners. So, yes I SCREWED UP, however... that would not have cost me a bust with other examiners. Let me say that again, I SCREWED UP, I leaned from that, and I am as good an instructor as you will find today because of it with a student pass rate that is far more a reflection of my abilities than what before essentially amounted to a test of how well I trained myself since my instructor never did a dang thing but milk me for time (I pretty much taught myself from the multi-private up).

you're not listening to what you're being told by some VERY sage and wise advisors here. STOP blaming the examiner already. The checks were yours to fail, GET IT?!? Your refusal to accept this very simple reality is going to bar you from progressing to the top of this business. I've seen your kind many many times. You make mistakes you shouldn't make and always have a convenient excuse at the ready when pressed on it. Yup, been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.

Adjust your attitude and accept the things you do not do so well. Accepting one's faults is the surest way to avoid having them become liabilities when the chips are down.

TIS

 

[banned username 1]

So there you go psunder.

It couldn't be any clearer than from this cross-section of professional pilots.

In the best tradition of aviators, we've tried to help an new guy out when he asked for help. We've done our job, now it's time for you to do yours. If I were you, I'd print these responses out and refer to them weekly in order to keep yourself on track to changing your perspective on aviation, your future and how you're going to get there, and most importantly, yourself.

We used to say when we interviewed that the best predictor of future performance is your past performance because frankly, without a truly life-changing event, a person never changes. You've got to find your own life-changing event.

Now, go out there and find it.

Best of luck,

UAL78

 

[FN FAL]

Once again, incorrect. I AM TAKING RESPONSIBILITY, the only thing I am saying is that I would not (as a categorical fact) have busted but maybe one checkride had I chosen different examiners. So, yes I SCREWED UP, however... that would not have cost me a bust with other examiners. Let me say that again, I SCREWED UP, I leaned from that, and I am as good an instructor as you will find today because of it with a student pass rate that is far more a reflection of my abilities than what before essentially amounted to a test of how well I trained myself since my instructor never did a dang thing but milk me for time (I pretty much taught myself from the multi-private up).

I doubt Pinnacle is going to care so much about the busted rides when they give you an interview. But they sure are going to have a lot of fun when you come out of the sim eval looking like a bear rolled you around in the prairie looking for that jelly doughnut in your pocket.

 

[WhiteCloud]

CFI? CFI candidates do not fail simply because they go to the FAA for their test. They fail because they are ILL PREPARED for the test they will be given. I have signed off 17 initial CFI applicants and another 25 additional instructor endorsements. Know what? Not a SINGLE ONE ever failed - not with the FAA and not with a DPE - ever.

That's a pretty impressive rate especially considering that at some FSDO's only 10-20% pass their initial CFI ride on the first time. I hear over and over again from the examiners in my FSDO (that is known for being "tough" on CFI tests) that they also are also very impressed when those rare individuals come to them well prepared and ready to kick some ass and take names on their flight test. I tell initial CFI applicants they will only be signed off when they are ready to nail everything down and are solid on the PTS. It may take a little longer and cost a little more than it would with another instructor but we'll do what it takes to get them to a high level of confidence so they can pass the test and, more importantly, able to work effectively as a CFI. Good job on the pass rate! We need more instructors that approach test prep your way.