Burden on Captain

[IslandDriver]

The place I see the most weakness on the "New FO" is basic IFR procedures and ATC procedures. It does not have to be low time FO's.

I do a lot of IOE with "New FO's" It is one thing to try and orient them to a new airplane but to teach hold entries, How to fly using enroute charts, how to make an initial ATC contact, how to even repeat back ATC calls, etc. That is where the challenge is.

I do not expect the candidate to fly the aircraft perfect but they are instrument rated and most have CFII's but yet they can not even talk to ATC properly....they make the operation look real weak and embarass the callsign. They are commercial instrument rated CFII's they should be able to do that...regardless of time because they have the ratings...the problem is that they did not "earn" the ratings they "bought" them.

I have to be way on top of taxi instructions and hold short instructions etc..It is harder than single pilot IFR at times. When I was single pilot at least I knew I was single pilot.

On the other hand I have done some IOE with 400 hour guys (and girls) that handle the IFR enviornment well. I honestly place that to the fact that they had a good foundation in a good school that taught how to use the system from day one.

Just my observations.

ID

 

[Cardinal]

I have to be way on top of taxi instructions and hold short instructions etc..It is harder than single pilot IFR at times. When I was single pilot at least I knew I was single pilot.

As a Line Check Airman, I concur. There is a reason that the LCA gets paid an override - it'd be easier and faster to do it yourself, but you're getting paid for patience. By extension, any Captain that flies with new guy after his IOE should logically receive a progressively diminishing pay override. Impossible, obviously, but it points to the tremendous value of experience.

 

[airplane wizard]

I do a lot of IOE with "New FO's" It is one thing to try and orient them to a new airplane but to teach hold entries, How to fly using enroute charts, how to make an initial ATC contact, how to even repeat back ATC calls, etc. That is where the challenge is.

How the heck can someone hired as an airline pilot not know how to do holding pattern entries or talk to ATC? I just don't get it

 

[Way2Broke]

How the heck can someone hired as an airline pilot not know how to do holding pattern entries or talk to ATC? I just don't get it

Havn't you ever seen Catch Me If You Can?

 

[AutoBus]

I have a read numerous threads talking about how low time FO's can be a burden on their captain. What exactly is meant by this? I figured if someone can pass the interview, and complete training they are well qualified to operate the aircraft.

The reverse is true also, I seen more than enough low time wonder captains be a burden on their F/O's.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

EXPERIENCE (or lack of)

Here's my take on the Regionals right now. We have new hires with less than 500 hours total time and what appears to be just enough multi time to get their Commercial Multi add-on. Pair them together with new Captains who are upgrading for the first time, and we have a nice recipe for disaster waiting to happen.

I hate to think that for the regionals, it is just a matter of time before we have an accident or an incident that causes some light to be shed on us in the public forum.

Unfortunately, there is a pilot shortage and this is what we have. Guys and Gals with temporary Commercial Certificates getting jobs flying around at Mach Speeds in and out of some very large and busy airports as well as some obscure and podunk airports with paying passengers on board.

In my opinion, it's the nature of the beast of the regionals now, and hopefully nobody gets hurt or killed as a result.

Fly safe.

 

[viper548]

As a Line Check Airman, I concur. There is a reason that the LCA gets paid an override - it'd be easier and faster to do it yourself, but you're getting paid for patience. By extension, any Captain that flies with new guy after his IOE should logically receive a progressively diminishing pay override. Impossible, obviously, but it points to the tremendous value of experience.

Half of the check airman override to the captain for the FO's first 100 hours shouldn't be too hard for them to calculate

 

[SXMp2c]

The place I see the most weakness on the "New FO" is basic IFR procedures and ATC procedures. It does not have to be low time FO's.

I do a lot of IOE with "New FO's" It is one thing to try and orient them to a new airplane but to teach hold entries, How to fly using enroute charts, how to make an initial ATC contact, how to even repeat back ATC calls, etc. That is where the challenge is.

I do not expect the candidate to fly the aircraft perfect but they are instrument rated and most have CFII's but yet they can not even talk to ATC properly....they make the operation look real weak and embarass the callsign. They are commercial instrument rated CFII's they should be able to do that...regardless of time because they have the ratings...the problem is that they did not "earn" the ratings they "bought" them.

I have to be way on top of taxi instructions and hold short instructions etc..It is harder than single pilot IFR at times. When I was single pilot at least I knew I was single pilot.

On the other hand I have done some IOE with 400 hour guys (and girls) that handle the IFR enviornment well. I honestly place that to the fact that they had a good foundation in a good school that taught how to use the system from day one.

Just my observations.

ID

Agreed 100%

Sometimes ill just key up when im flying to ask for direct APE. Cause with some of these wonderkids, it takes 4 radio calls to accomplish what i do in one.

The following words should not be comming out of an airline pilot's mouth:

"This is..."
"AND center..."
Calling every ATC facility (including tracon, tower, ground) "Center"

Feel free to add yours...

 

[AutoBus]

Agreed 100%

Sometimes ill just key up when im flying to ask for direct APE. Cause with some of these wonderkids, it takes 4 radio calls to accomplish what i do in one.

The following words should not be comming out of an airline pilot's mouth:

"This is..."
"AND center..."
Calling every ATC facility (including tracon, tower, ground) "Center"

Feel free to add yours...

wearing hats
wearing backpacks
wearing ipods
spiked hair

 

[indianboy7]

How the heck can someone hired as an airline pilot not know how to do holding pattern entries or talk to ATC? I just don't get it

Happens all the time.....I had to give an FO a lesson on getting clearances the other day....hopefully it was a one time thing....

 

[acaTerry]

Speaking of what Island Driver said....my very favorite thing I ever heard on the radio......and this is no BS.....

"Yo YO Yo Clevie...______1627 keepin' it real at one-five thousand"

I had my thumb on the way down to the PTT, but just couldn't think of quite what to say...

 

[BushwickBill]

Agreed 100%

Sometimes ill just key up when im flying to ask for direct APE. Cause with some of these wonderkids, it takes 4 radio calls to accomplish what i do in one.

The following words should not be comming out of an airline pilot's mouth:

"This is..."
"AND center..."
Calling every ATC facility (including tracon, tower, ground) "Center"

Feel free to add yours...

Whats wrong with just saying center? If your on the freq your on the freq. Sometimes I say So Cal instead of "southern california approach". Maybe I'm trying to save some airtime so every other airline pilot can ask for ride reports.

Oh and the captain I fly with says the co pilots job is to take the blame for everything - "thats why your here." Ok man, whatever floats your boat. As long as the company keeps sending me 3000 bucks every two weeks and pays for another bottle of 60$ wine with dinner we are storted. Say whatever you want bro.

Serioulsy, I never argue with the captain, I always do what he says and I try to learn from vicious brow beatings. Even though they seem like vicious brow beatings at the time I usually learn something.

As for other pilots skill levels I can't say much. Since I fly corporate I've only flown with 4 other captains. All of them were very experienced. I have noticed younger pilots are almost universally quick to jump all over a pilot they percive as inexperienced. Underhanded backstabbing cocky nonsense seems to be the norm for the under 25 catagory. I feel sorry for captains making starvation wages who work IOE with a wunderkind in the right seat. I wasn't ready to fly the CJ1 at 800 hours. Things are easy now but flight instruction can't prepare you for everything you see above 5000'.

 

[FoxyWhiskey]

My opinion, for what it's worth...

I have found that 300 hour FOs coming out of schools like Flight Safety and other similar programs are extremely better prepared than the 600-800 hour new hires coming in "off the street". Also, I think any pilot who initially trained in a fast paced environment (Class B airports, busy airspace) are more on top of things in the cockpit than those who did their time in, say, Podunk Kansas....first officer or Captain.

The quality of experience matters. Being new, there is going to be a decent learning curve, chances are you've been there yourself, so don't hate. FOs take the chance to learn everything you can from your captain (good & bad), and captains show your new FOs how it's done and what you'd like to see. Let's work together & fly SAFE! :beer:

-FW

 

[FoxyWhiskey]

Oh and....

The worst thing I have heard (and this was a few weeks ago) was another regional pilot upon receiving their HOLD instructions:

"Ok, you want us to go around the racetrack again. Gotcha. ABC airline out!" Yikes!

-FW

 

[SXMp2c]

Whats wrong with just saying center?

I dont have a problem with saying center. Im as lazy as anyone. I have a problem with approach handing us off to tower and the idot checks in by saying "good afternoon center, xxx123 on the ils 18L....roger xxx123, Cincinnati tower, cleared to land 18L."

 

[Thedude]

I dont have a problem with saying center. Im as lazy as anyone. I have a problem with approach handing us off to tower and the idot checks in by saying "good afternoon center, xxx123 on the ils 18L....roger xxx123, Cincinnati tower, cleared to land 18L."

Have a few 26 hr days and you will understand

 

[BushwickBill]

I dont have a problem with saying center. Im as lazy as anyone. I have a problem with approach handing us off to tower and the idot checks in by saying "good afternoon center, xxx123 on the ils 18L....roger xxx123, Cincinnati tower, cleared to land 18L."

Ok well fair enough. That is retarded.

 

[BigPappa]

Funny that most of these comments about dealing with FOs come from Captains who bought their jobs! Remember the day that you were the FNG.

 

[Captain Morgan]

Epic!:

I think you're naive. Not to be blunt, but one day you will understand that there is more to flying a jet under Part 121 than you will ever realize. I didn't know what was all involved when I joined up. You're not only a pilot, but a 3 ring circus conductor. I do believe now the new F/O's are worth what they are getting paid. The captains now should be paid more than they are.

CM

 

[Papps]

The worst thing I have heard (and this was a few weeks ago) was another regional pilot upon receiving their HOLD instructions:

"Ok, you want us to go around the racetrack again. Gotcha. ABC airline out!" Yikes!

-FW

Sometimes the FO just rattles something crazy out before you have a chance to stop him.