Burden on Captain

[OnTheRocks]

you guys are kinda sounding high and mighty on this one...kinda like the ones that blame every little slip on the f.o., or atc,etc. and assume liability for nothing. the truth of the whole thing is that were all stupid, and those that dont realize theyre stupid, are just plain dangerous....

 

[Guitar Guy]

You have two choices, you can stare at the instruments or you can impart your knowledge (which apparently you were born with) on the new FO and contribute to his education. Come to think of it you are also contributing to his education when you stare at the instruments, hopefully he realizes it's how not to act as a Captain.

And at most companies, one of the duties of a PIC is to further the development of the SIC.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

1. Learn how to talk on the radio. Your poor skills are embarrassing.

2. Basic airmanship like crosswind takeoffs and landings, smooth control application, and a normal traffic pattern are not optional.

Do you really think they are going to teach this stuff at the "school house"? My only lack of confidence is in my FO. Having to always worry about what you are or aren't going to do makes my job harder than it needs to be.

I have no problem "mentoring" as I instructed for two years. I thought I was through holding hands though.

And soon enough I will be "bidding back to FO" - AT A MAJOR!

And how do you want to be treated as an FO when you get to the major?

Shall assumptions be made that you have no Captain exp. and you're just another seat warmer. Do you want the captain to say, you're at a major I am done hand holding you guys. Wanna go Transoceanic? Do you want the Captains to show you how to fly the Atlantic routes or expect you to be a schoolhouse wunderkind?

As a Capts we can show the new guys how to do it right or we can be bitter pilots and forward our attitudes on to them. The fact is we cannot control who sits in the right seat. As FAA qualified FO's we get what we get. These new guys despertly want to fit it and will copy the culture provided, right or wrong. If they see poor captains they take it at face value as they way its done. They do not know the diff between a good Capt and a poor one. We need to be leaders and show them the professional way. Sure it takes more effort but you'll feel better in two years when you have to deadhead or j/s and said FO is the Capt. (cause it is gonna happen)

Problem is... if the poor Capts won't teach these guys how to talk on the radio, xwind landings etc.. then when they fly with the other capts they are going to ask who've they've been flying with and when the names come up we'll know who the poor Captains are....

In addition, we provide a negative learning environemnt to the new FO's only to shove them off on to your fellow Captains. When you get a new FO do you want one that has just flown a good four day with a Captain that took the time to teach, empower and promote or do you want a fearful, angry bitter FO that has regressed all he's learned from the school house cause some tool Capt treated him like garbage?

 

[Leroy Smith]

I figured if someone can pass the interview, and complete training they are well qualified to operate the aircraft.

No, it means you have attained the absolute minimum standards necessary to be and apprentice pilot. If you have some other real-world experience behind you, then you are ahead of the game. Would you say an instrument rating is proof that the rated person is competant to fly in all types of conditions? Of course not, it means that person has demonstrated the ability to perform a set of tasks to the minimum requirements of the Practical Test Standards. They are minimally qualified to fly in the IFR system and to start learning about all that goes on in it. The rest of it takes more effort to learn safely than the rating did.

I dont begrudge all the captains the priveledge of b!tching about it, but it is the new reality. New hire qualifications keep going down and the reality is that you will be instructing/mentoring/babysitting/etc whether you like it or not. Maybe its not what you signed on for, but if you dont take the time, they wont get any better. And a lot of them really do want to do the right thing. (More or less, what the Rez said)

Any of you low-time guys lucky enough to get upgraded fast: be careful out there! I hope you were paying attention for that brief time in the right seat, and got as much as you could from the good captains you flew with.

 

[huncowboy]

I figured if someone can pass the interview, and complete training they are well qualified to operate the aircraft.

I am still an FO. The above is an incorrect assumption. Interviews at the regional are so canned that most are easy to pass not to mention the web is full with gouges. About training I used to figure the same until I have witnessed at least two persons in my class passing who had no business in this profession. I have also witnessed another 4 being sent home. Some, but not everyone is filtered out in training.

Obviously not everyone is filtered out at upgrade either because just about everyone on this board can tell you that he or she has flown with someone in the left seat who absolutely scared the crap out of them. It is very rare but it happens.

According to my instructors and a random FAA backseater: I did very well in training. Still I know that I was a burden for my first few trips. The CA had to keep doing small stuff for me or explain something that I have never heard of. With every trip things got a lot better and after about 100h I felt comfortable. However looking back now (after one year) I am convinced that comfort was a very false sense of security. I was still far from being able to catch most mistakes that came from the left side and I was not able to keep thinking ahead of the plane as much as most CAs can. Now I am doing extra stuff that some CAs don't, or I remind them on small things that they have missed. I still make mistakes but only few and mostly minor ones. I still learn something on each trip but mostly local things unique to certain airports.

IMO anyone who gets into 121 w/o prior 121 experience or anyone who changes plane will be a burden for some time. There are many small things that are particular to 121 and there are many small things that are particular to each plane. Not knowing them will make you vulnerable to mistake, or just slow you down. Either way, it will be up to the more experienced to correct you and provide you with guidance.

 

[~~~^~~~]

you guys are kinda sounding high and mighty on this one...kinda like the ones that blame every little slip on the f.o., or atc,etc. and assume liability for nothing. the truth of the whole thing is that were all stupid, and those that dont realize theyre stupid, are just plain dangerous....

Good point. I'm not "high" or "mighty." A more experienced FO is more likely to tell me if I'm doing something "unusual" and keep us both out of trouble.

A new guy is less likely know what "unusual" is.

And actually, I think the point most people are trying to make is that every slip up is the Captain's slip up, since the Captain is the one held responsible for it no matter how it happens.

Look at your Operations Manual. Think it is any coincidence that the Vice President of Flight Operations is responsible for one paragraph and the Captain's responsibilities take the next 40 pages?

 

[Dirty Sanchez]

And how do you want to be treated as an FO when you get to the major?

Shall assumptions be made that you have no Captain exp. and you're just another seat warmer. Do you want the captain to say, you're at a major I am done hand holding you guys. Wanna go Transoceanic? Do you want the Captains to show you how to fly the Atlantic routes or expect you to be a schoolhouse wunderkind?

As a Capts we can show the new guys how to do it right or we can be bitter pilots and forward our attitudes on to them. The fact is we cannot control who sits in the right seat. As FAA qualified FO's we get what we get. These new guys despertly want to fit it and will copy the culture provided, right or wrong. If they see poor captains they take it at face value as they way its done. They do not know the diff between a good Capt and a poor one. We need to be leaders and show them the professional way. Sure it takes more effort but you'll feel better in two years when you have to deadhead or j/s and said FO is the Capt. (cause it is gonna happen)

Problem is... if the poor Capts won't teach these guys how to talk on the radio, xwind landings etc.. then when they fly with the other capts they are going to ask who've they've been flying with and when the names come up we'll know who the poor Captains are....

In addition, we provide a negative learning environemnt to the new FO's only to shove them off on to your fellow Captains. When you get a new FO do you want one that has just flown a good four day with a Captain that took the time to teach, empower and promote or do you want a fearful, angry bitter FO that has regressed all he's learned from the school house cause some tool Capt treated him like garbage?

There is a big difference in teaching someone how to land an airplane and dealing with the specifics of "transoceanic" flight.

If you are hired to be an accountant, teacher, etc., you are expected to be at least proficient at the tasks required in your position. I am tired of flying with people that could not hold their own in a 172, let alone a jet. They would not make it a week flying night freight. But I am expected to train them on basics they should have acquired before coming here.

I am not bitter towards these people, just disappointed in a system that allows this to continue. I don't care if the FO just came off a four day with your "empowering" captain or a poor one, I would sometimes rather have an extra 200 pounds of fuel than someone sitting over there f'ing everything up.

 

[Marsupial]

Lets talk about the CA who is a burden on the FO! Ive been there and its not fun having to baby sit somebody (usally a chick) that has been around for a while. That shouldnt be any FO's job! Its amazing how some CA's havent figured out there is more to it than being good with the paper work and call outs!

wtf? that post would have been fine without that particular interjection.

 

[Tarzan]

Shall assumptions be made that you have no Captain exp. and you're just another seat warmer.

Time out there! While there will always be those who slip through the cracks because their daddy knows the right people, most folks moving on to legacy carriers are NOT 250-500 pilot mill kids. By the time the time they move on, they can talk on the radio, they can discuss how to work through a problem, they understand what to expect with windshear, etc. Huge difference there between the two contexts. So much difference, it really does not hold enough water to discuss.

 

[Goose Egg]

I think its just a overall lack of experience, making decisions etc You probably need at least 1000 TT to be a FO in a jet.

At 700-800 hours, I never would have believed that. Now pushing 1200, I wonder how I ever got along before; there is a huge difference in my level of competency. And I'm as excited to go be an FO on a jet as anyone, but even now I wonder if there still might be some holes in my experience.

Anyway, for what it's worth...

-Goose