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Brazil Mid-Air Survivor

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Thread creep alert

Criminal charges due to an aircraft accident, while not common. are not unheard of in the US. But they are not federal charges. The FAR is not criminal in nature so there is no federal criminal statute, only civil sanctions. However the states and localities do in fact have the authority and right to make laws and prosecute the pilot(s) under them if their actions, or results thereof, in that jurisdiction constitute a violation of those laws. That includes manslaughter, reckless endangerment, operating under the influence, etc.

I believe the landmark case was in northern AZ in the early 80's when a flight instructor, who had a reputation as a wild-man, was screwing around during a formation flight and hit the other airplane. He and his student survived, but two of the four people on the other airplane were killed. He was prosecuted and convicted of negligent homicide by the county over which the collision occured and I think he did some time.

So, I don't know about Brazil (Brasil, whatever), but at least in the US, criminal charges would come from the state and/or local authorities. You would get a letter from the FAA about your license suspension in your cell at the county jail.

I attended an aircraft accident investigation "workshop" at a police academy in Virginia several years ago. Here is what I learned: Once the fire is out, the local and state authorities are YOUR WORST ENEMY. They go into "Lenny Briscoe" mode. THEY KNOW you have committed a crime; to them it's just a matter of finding out which one. All their investigative expertise goes into finding out what crime(s) you committed that resulted in you dropping aluminum onto their jurisdiction. For example: There was an hour long presentation by a Commonwealth's Attorney (DA) on how to obtain a search warrant for your blood. The term "hammer the pilot" came up more than once. This is a criminal investigation. They are treating it as such and so should you.

If they are unable to produce evidence you actually committed a violation of local and/or state law they will hand over, with relish, everything they have to the FAA so the FAA can hammer you even if they couldn't.

End of thread creep
 
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How the hell did we go from this tragic accident to Mr. Bushy having the power to turn off the news.(Is this like a magic button that just gets rid of the news or what) By the way I think is a 10 second delay on the life stuff. Another thing that really pi$$es me off (Upfront I will say I don't like Mr. Bushy at all and I'm not one of those guys that drinks the cool-aid either) I don't know what types of freedom you have in BRAZIL but the ones here in the US are about the best I have seen anywhere I have traveled in the world, this is not to say we are perfect or the best or anything like that because our system is not perfect but again is about the best I have seen. And by the way if things are much better in BRAZIL don't let the door hit your A$$ on the way back down south. I hate people who always say how things are better where they came from but then are here in the US taking up our limited space. HAHA. UBA757
 
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Bombinha: literally "little pump" in portguese. Not sure if it has another connotation though..
 
Guys and Gals,

Let please get the conversation back on track. It seems that the thread is starting to go downhill and lose its original point. If you all want to argue over petty things....use the PM function.

thanks
 
Wow... this thread has gone downhill fast.

bombinha - you're posts are rambling, nonsensical, and just plain wrong.

First off, Brazil is spelled Brazil in English. Look it up. It is only spelled "Brasil" in Portuguese. Since most of us are using English on this forum, don't go around correcting people for using proper English (something you have obviously not yet mastered).

Second... the distance from Sao Jose dos Campos to Manaus is less than 1500nm. The range of a Legacy is over 3000nm. Yet you seem to present as fact that they were pushing their fuel, and hence refused to descend from FL370 to FL360. This is beyond speculation, it's blatantly idiotic. Furthermore, the service ceiling is FL410 not FL370 as you posted.

Third... Brazil has just over 11,000 total registered aircraft. The US has over 225,000 registered aircraft. The UK has over 17,000 total registered aircraft. I picked those countries at random, and have already shown that your statement that Brazil has the "second largest fleet" is total B.S. I haven't even looked at Australia, Russia, etc. all of which certainly have larger fleets than Brazil.

Fourth and last... you seem to want to educate us all on ICAO rules and yet your profile shows that you hold both an "FAA ATP" and an "ICAO ATP". Surely then you know that an FAA ATP is an ICAO ATP...



Excellent post.....

And for the little pump dude....

I speak 3 different languages and I believe I have mastered english a little better then you. As for the rest of your post.... you freaking lost me after hello....and I couldn't care any less....

Now back to the topic at hand.....

I got my type on the 145 a few years ago and have only a few hundred hours in the darn thing, so I need some guys that are book smart and have a lot more time in the lawn dart.....<grin>.

There is an AD out for the embraer 135/145 that has to be complied with by october 17th that has to do with the transponder going into the standby mode for no reason at all while in flight. Im hoping that my buddy posts the AD on here, but again thats me being lazy and hoping one of you 145 checkairmen type would have this already. The pilots have denied time and time again about having turned the thing off and with the DFDR I don't know how this has not been proven yet. Im thinking corrupt politics has something to do with it.... dunno. This little tid bit might be the thing that gets them home soon. I know the guy that found this out and helped get everything to those guys, eventhough he's a DB, he's still a great friend for doing that. Beers on me DB.

Anyone in the know please chime in would ya?
 
This AD applies to the Honeywell parts identified in paragraphs (c)(1) and (c)(2) of this AD, approved under Technical Standard Order TSO-C112, installed on


EMBRAER Model EMB-135BJ, -135ER, -135KE, -135KL, and - 135LR airplanes; EMBRAER Model EMB-145, -145ER, -145MR, -145LR, - 145XR, -145MP, and -145EP airplanes;

This AD results from the transponder erroneously going into standby mode if the flightcrew takes longer than five seconds when using the rotary knob of the radio management unit to change the air traffic control code. We are issuing this AD to prevent the transponder of the COM unit from going into standby mode, which could increase the workload on the flightcrew and result in improper functioning of the traffic alert and collision avoidance system.
 
Just a bystander.

But, go back to the NY Times article. The author obviously wrote it minutes after reaching the ground and giving his newspaper a scoop on something that "just happened".

Now I personally dislike the NY Times and their biased reporting and proclivity to releasing "classified" information.... BUT this guy was kissing the ground, the pilots, the military guys and anyone else he could find for still being alive.

What were his comments about the flight BEFORE the crash? He was sat back relaxing in a leather chair reading and writing. He had visited the flight deck earlier and been shown the FL370 readout.

Now where were these "playing around" maneuvers the Brazilians are talking about? A jet moving from FL320 to FL370 with pilots playing with the transponder off would feel a little bit odd to a passenger riding in the back. If you are going to turn off the transponder and horse around over the jungle, then I would think the passengers would either have been told or they would have felt the "horsing".

Now if the NY Times had a reporter on board, the pilots had been horsing around and this accident occurred.....which do you think is more likely of our vaunted journalist - would he:

1.) hide the fact that the new owners and pilots decided to "do things" with the aircraft moments before the crash?

or

2.) bury the pilots? As in - "I couldn't believe these yahoos....there I was trapped aboard an aircraft as we went through a series of dives and climbs and suddenly - WHAM - we are hit by an airliner".

You know the NY Times wants story #2. There is no way they want to be out-scooped by O globo or some other news outlet.

My vote is propoganda. I feel sorry for the American pilots. The railroad is being built to take them directly to Brazil's version of Siberia - in this case, though, the time stamp on the NY Times author's recollections may be the only bit of clarity in this whole affair. Brazil wants to hang somebody for killing Brazilians and causing shame/embarassment to their ATC or Low-cost airline.

These guys need a good lawyer and a good "handler" to get them out of Brazil ASAP.
 

From the AD......

Request To Revise Compliance Time Empresa Brasileira de Aeronautica S.A. (EMBRAER) requests that we extend the compliance time for the AFM revision from 5 to 30 days. EMBRAER asserts that the loss of the transponder does not pose so great of a hazard to justify such an urgent compliance time. As justification for extending the compliance time, EMBRAER states that some of the affected airplanes might be on international trips, where it may not be possible to return an airplane to a convenient location and accomplish the AFM revision within 5 days after the effective date of this AD.

The compliance date of the AD is October 17, 2006. 11 days from now.
 
It seems odd that a new A/C still at the factory when this AD came out would not have the MOD done before delivery.
 
It seems odd that a new A/C still at the factory when this AD came out would not have the MOD done before delivery.

The AD was entered into the Federal Register on September 12, 2006 with a compliance date of October 17, 2006, the accident happened on September 29 (?).

The airplane was already built and unless the new owner was aware that there was an AD prior to the delivery of the aircraft, why should the manufacture spend the money to comply with AD? To do so, would cut into the profits.
 
The AD was entered into the Federal Register on September 12, 2006 with a compliance date of October 17, 2006, the accident happened on September 29 (?).

The airplane was already built and unless the new owner was aware that there was an AD prior to the delivery of the aircraft, why should the manufacture spend the money to comply with AD? To do so, would cut into the profits.


Exactly, and maybe a motivator on how this case is being handled down there.

How many quotes from the manufacturer have been published since the incident vs. the government of Brasil?
 
AD aside, which one of the 2 airplanes was at the wrong flight level?
 
we don't know! All we know is that the legacy was supposed to be at FL360 and the 737 at FL 370. Noone on this board knows for a fact which one was not where it should have been.
 
UBA 757 Are u drunk?
what freedom u jhave in US?
u just don't know what freedom is.
Just to name a few can u have sex with your wife or fiance anywhere u want?
Can u drink alchool outside of course on the own bottle not covered with any bag or on plastic cup?
Can you send your underage duagther to buy couple of six packs at the convinience store 1 block away while you watch the superball with your friends on sunday afternoon?
And what about vote can you vote for president or you have to vote on a electoral colege made of rich and wealthy people that has no clue about what is to be a labor at this country?
So my friend u have drinking the cool aid that they say only USA is free.
Even in Any country in europe you have much I said much more freedom than US but no jobs to all. So the only reason immigrants come to US is jobs and not because our way of life. open your eyes.
 
And yes we all know what a clearance is and the legacy copy the clearance to go down in Brasilia to FL 360 also in Brasil there is no phone to file a flight plan that means all flight plans are to be file personaly and there is a guy to check if it was file correctly also need to be signed and a flight plan is considered an official document and on the written flight plan they state the change to FL360 over BSB what was not complied and we all know the procedure for inflight lost of com if it happened (which is impossible over the Capital of Brasil) and the lost of com procedure here in US in Brasil or even in China is to follow what was in your flight plan and mantain strictely attached to it till you recover your com and/or land at the destination airport. They had no com problems as they call for mayday as soon as they were hit.
Negligence is a mistake the jeopardize or cause damage so even the Gulfstream yesterday at LAX could face charges for negligence despite the accident didn't happened they could be prosecuted for threaten someones lifes. And honestly I don't fell safe flying around with some people that don't follow the rules I am glad they are grounded at least till they learn something.
So independent of the TCAS/transponder being on or off they screwed up and that's it now just a matter to see how much or why.
I even believe the company push them to make a direct flight (and not pay extra landing fees) what is a 5 hours leg and almost all the fuel of the Legacy and with some head winds and flying over the amazon they kind of cheat to not go down and burn more gas. That would put the company also more responsible in this matter but stop people to think we are perfect and the best because we are americans that's not true any longer would be in the past after the WW2 but not today even china economy is better and having been growing 10% a year for the last almost 15 years we never had this grow after the 80's. So think about it. Embraer is the third largest aircraft manufacturer and is Brasilian. Brasil is the largest beef and chiken meet producer in the world as is cofee and orange. Also has the second largest fleet of the world just losing to USA and that includes airliners and private owned aircraft. But is one of the most safe airspaces level with Canada. It is also bigger than continental US. So don't do that ugly atitude like the AA captain that gave the finger to the feds there just because they started to ask for his documents. Laws are to be respected and complied so if u don't like the lwas on that place you always can leave and go somewhere else or ask the embraer pilots to deliver the plane if you don't like or don't know how to do it.
 
Tarp I have no words for you as I don't wanna flame.
But man you should rethink your life as a human been because you didn't write like one.
 
Look they said about the maneuvers because the legacy just after pass the point the should be going down to FL360 they lost the mode C or alt whatever u wanna call and the radar in Brasil are superior than the 70's style we have in US so they are color computer screens with keyboard and not rounded amber or green scopes. So they still had the primary target and were able by trigonometry to do an estimate of the legacy alt what was reading back as beteween 35800 and 36500 they called legacy a total of 5 times prior to the impact with no answer to ask for them to recycle their transponder the legacy has 2 and both were off. That is not a speculation is already official by Brasilian Cenipa the NTSB like there and NTSB is there since the third day of investigation as is FAA people so don't try to defend who screwed up just because they are americans before that they are humans and subjected to egos vanity pride and other stuff. They in screwed up in 1 word yes. How much? that is what the nvestigation gonna bring but right now don't look preety. Did the company push them to do so? Nobody knows but being American I belive so because the company is paying a former secretary of defense to be their legal lawyer so just by this move I could say the company was faulty of pushing them. They had to do it? No but they could face losing their jobs if they make a extra landing and pay extra fees as anyone who flew corporate here knows.
So tarp stop acting like a jerk because I honestly believe u are not.
 
One more freedom you guys don't have and you have in Spain France Switzerland and some other places.
Can a woman just go naked to the beaches and show those hot bodies in US that is not Miami beach or some special beach?
Any beach in spain clothes are optional so is around lake Zurich on weekends as is on South of France.
Vive la liberte, la egalite and la fraternite.
Chears for the liberty, equalty and fraternity things we americans forgot some time ago.
 
Man you are one sad person. To you freedom is sending your underage kid to buy you beer at the corner store. You are the true definition of an A$$. So from sex to the electoral college. (WOW) Yeah, the crime rate in your country is pretty high correct? You also have a very high rate of child abandonment right? Poverty line somewhere above 50%? And after reading what you wrote, if the people back in Brazil have about the same IQ as you do then you also have a great deal of stupid, moronic and idiotic population. You sir are a tool. Like I said we don't need or want people that don't want to be part of our system and you obviously don't want to be part of our system. UBA757
 
One more freedom you guys don't have and you have in Spain France Switzerland and some other places.
Can a woman just go naked to the beaches and show those hot bodies in US that is not Miami beach or some special beach?
Any beach in spain clothes are optional so is around lake Zurich on weekends as is on South of France.
Vive la liberte, la egalite and la fraternite.
Chears for the liberty, equalty and fraternity things we americans forgot some time ago.


Has anybody else got a spliting headache reading this guy's posts? Anyone got some motrin?
 
Man you are one sad person. To you freedom is sending your underage kid to buy you beer at the corner store. You are the true definition of an A$$. So from sex to the electoral college. (WOW) Yeah, the crime rate in your country is pretty high correct? You also have a very high rate of child abandonment right? Poverty line somewhere above 50%? And after reading what you wrote, if the people back in Brazil have about the same IQ as you do then you also have a great deal of stupid, moronic and idiotic population. You sir are a tool. Like I said we don't need or want people that don't want to be part of our system and you obviously don't want to be part of our system. UBA757

Having lived in Brazil for ten years (actually I'm 1/2 brazilian) I can attest that there are morons everywhere and yes this bombinha is a good example of a brazilian one. I'm actually embarassed by the examples he's using to prove his is a better country. Sending your underage daughter to buy beer sounds pretty damn redneck to me. And yes poverty and criminality are skyhigh...but the girls are fiiiine! :nuts: They also party like no one else.
 
Has anybody else got a spliting headache reading this guy's posts? Anyone got some motrin?


Arhcei....

why yuo be you say thing like that? Thees peples are freingds to me and you. Him no get why we like this, as amerikans we shold have laws to let our 8 year old dahgter get me beer when me at home too drunk to get more beer. LOL... sorry I just gave myself a headache typing like little pump dude.....

Well... I guess its a matter of time now. I hope the best for those guys.
 
Networking
Manaus is about 1500 nm but remember is ICAO gotta have an alternate always, and closest one is about 300nm+ away Santarem. Plus you cannot refuel a legacy inflight can you?
The region has a tendency for strong winds from time to time and I don't think they took it in consideration as none of them ever flew over there.
Second is not about the english language and about arrogance is arrogant to change someone names or call a soberan country of a different name for example would u like to refer to USA as the EEUU os something different so use the actual name and BTW Brazil with Z is not english is spanish.
Third I believe I not only master english language but another 3, are you able to say the same about yourself?
Fourth I probably have a lot more knowledge about the world than yourself that live only in US and think the world turns around you and FYI the NYT don't sell half of O Globo take a look by yourself on this link http://www.nytco.com/company-properties-times.html average NYT
http://www.ajorb.com.br/aj-tiragem.htm average Brasilian newspaper O Globo is the second with 7.490.768 that's about 5 times or so more than NYT.
Now back to the facts.
 

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