Brazil Mid-Air Survivor

[Benhuntn]

what are the odds that 4 stupid pilots could be in the same airspace at the same time and same place?

 

[ackattacker]

Why does this always start?

My post was not meant as an attack on the crew of the Legacy. There may be a perfectly legit reason for them to be at FL370, such as a block altitude as someone posted. We don't know all the facts yet (and probably won't for a long while.) The cause of this accident could be many things including ATC error.

Still, I found it odd that no one else seemed to find this odd. It is an "unusual" altitude for a westbound plane to be on.

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere an article about how in some ways modern navigation technology (GPS etc) introduces it's own dangers, because navigation is now so accurate that aircraft are almost always exactly on the center of an airway. The old system of VOR's and NDB's was kind of sloppy, so that it was likely that if someone screwed up and two aircraft ended up opposite direction they were unlikely to hit.

 

[Gummo]

what are the odds that 4 stupid pilots could be in the same airspace at the same time and same place?

Maybe I misunderstood your point, but that seems like a ugly thing to say with 155 people dead out in the jungle and no conclusive evidence of what happened. I envy you your error free flying career, and the certitude with which you judge others.

 

[Ben Franklin]

what are the odds that 4 stupid pilots could be in the same airspace at the same time and same place?

Glad you've got it figured out before the investigation is complete!







Sincerely,

B. Franklin

 

[Benhuntn]

thanks

 

[Falconjet]

Murf: you having a bad day, or maybe left yourself logged on somewhere?

Those posts don't sound like your usual self.

Imagine if somebody had said something similar about 2 pilots at MDW, you'd be pretty indignant I'd bet.

FJ

 

[ALGFLYR]

Murf: you having a bad day, or maybe left yourself logged on somewhere?

Those posts don't sound like your usual self.

Imagine if somebody had said something similar about 2 pilots at MDW, you'd be pretty indignant I'd bet.

FJ

I didn't take his quote to leads us to believe these were stupid pilots. If he meant it that way, he's a jerk.

What I took from his comment was that these were most likely very competent pilots that knew what they were doing. Someone else suggested they were at the wrong altitude for direction of flight. I think this was in response to that. I could be wrong though...

 

[Benhuntn]

ALGFLYR Thanks for the support but I was being a jerk. S. America is the 2nd most dangerous continent to fly on, not counting Antartica. You have to be on your "A" game at all times. Someone wasn't clearing either with their eyes or on the radios. No TCAS I am assuming means you have to be vigilant. I may have been harsh but I have said so now I can't take it back.

 

[AA717driver]

I submit the Bay of Bengal for the third most dangerous place... TC

 

[barnyard]

Anyways, I thought that was an amazing article.

 

[aa73]

Was Jan Palidino an ex ACA pilot and Furloughed American Pilot?

Cya

It's looking like it... I know him pretty well, too.

73

 

[Crzipilot]

Most of south america is non radar. When I was flying down there TCAS was not required either ....... It just does not compare to stateside flying.

For those that have never flown out of the country....this is an unknown....for those that have done so....this is known...

 

[Stan]

By Andrei Khalip 1 hour, 24 minutes ago

RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (Reuters) - Brazilian authorities confiscated the passports of two American pilots on Tuesday who were flying a business jet that apparently collided with a commercial airliner that crashed last week deep in the Amazon jungle, killing all 155 people on board.
[SIZE=-2][/SIZE]
Judge Tiago de Abril in Mato Grosso state, where the plane went down, told Reuters police had seized the passports of U.S. citizens Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino on his orders for the duration of the investigation.
"That's a cautionary measure. If they returned to the United States it would require a lot of time and effort for us to collect their testimony," the judge said, adding that the investigation should not take long.
The two pilots, who were flying a newly built executive jet that authorities believe clipped the Boeing 737-800 in midair, arrived on Tuesday in Rio de Janeiro for medical and psychological tests as part of the investigation.
They face more questioning on Wednesday.
"They are being interviewed by the authorities and are giving their total cooperation with the investigation," said Glauco Paiva, a U.S. consulate official in Rio.
The business jet, a Legacy 600 made by Brazilian manufacturer Embraer, was recently purchased by ExcelAire Service, a charter company based in Ronkonkoma, New York. The pilots were flying it to the United States when it apparently hit the airliner flown by low-cost Brazilian carrier Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes.
The business jet was able to land safely at a military base in the jungle. None of the seven people on board were hurt.
DEVIATION FROM FLIGHT PLAN
Air Force commander Luiz Carlos Bueno said on Monday both planes were flying at 37,000 feet, which means that one of them had strayed from its flight plan.
Investigators want to know why modern collision avoidance equipment installed on both planes did not prevent the accident, local aviation authorities said.
Brazilian news reports have offered a range of conflicting theories about the accident's cause, some speculating that the Legacy jet may have deviated from its flight plan.
Christine Negroni, with U.S. law firm Kreindler & Kreindler which is not involved in the investigation, said all planes heading west in Brazil fly at even multiples of 1,000 feet, and those hading east at odd multiples.
"Since the American pilots were flying northwest, they should not have been at 37,000 (feet). That's very odd," she told Reuters.
A message asking for comment left with an ExcelAire official was not immediately returned.
At the crash site in a dense, remote area in the rain forest, salvage crews had recovered the remains of about 50 victims by Tuesday, including the airliner's two pilots.
"Parts of the plane and many bodies are scattered over an area of some 20 square kilometers in the forest and searchers have to scare away wild animals, especially at night, by burning large fires," an air force spokesman said.
A badly damaged black box from the Boeing will probably be taken for analysis to the United States or Canada, after which it will be compared with the data from the business jet, aviation authorities said.
As it often does, the U.S. National Transportation Safety Board sent investigators to help with the probe in Brazil.
Grieving relatives were asked to provide dental records or descriptions that could help identify the bodies, as well as blood samples for DNA tests.

 

[FoxHunter]

As an aside, I remember reading somewhere an article about how in some ways modern navigation technology (GPS etc) introduces it's own dangers, because navigation is now so accurate that aircraft are almost always exactly on the center of an airway. The old system of VOR's and NDB's was kind of sloppy, so that it was likely that if someone screwed up and two aircraft ended up opposite direction they were unlikely to hit.

There have been some that advocate flying a 1 to 2 mile offset from the airway center line. The regs say you have to fly the center line but I'll bet there would be 155 people alive today if one of those two aircraft had been flying a 1 mile offset.

 

[humuakalaka]

There have been some that advocate flying a 1 to 2 mile offset from the airway center line. The regs say you have to fly the center line but I'll bet there would be 155 people alive today if one of those two aircraft had been flying a 1 mile offset.

I think New York Oceanic control experimented with assigning offsets a few years ago. Does anyone remember that? I think it's a great idea; even inserting a quarter or half mile offset could have been a lifesaver in this situation. It's too bad that the offset assignments never took off. I'm personally a believer in inserting an offset. I can't think of any drawbacks while enroute at cruise altitude. Can anyone else?

 

[MaxTorque]

SLOP - strategic lateral offset procedures are already in use on oceanic routes.

MT

 

[RP 04]

Up to 2 miles right of track, no ATC clearance required, at least across the Pacific...

 

[Weasil]

There may be a perfectly legit reason for them to be at FL370, .

Still, I found it odd that no one else seemed to find this odd. It is an "unusual" altitude for a westbound plane to be on.

.

Well it looks like the Brazilians noticed this too. Somebody was at the wrong altitude.

Christine Negroni, an investigator for the aviation law firm Kreindler & Kreindler of New York, said in an e-mail that under international guidelines the Legacy should not have been at an odd-numbered altitude because it was heading northwest.
"All westbound flights fly at even numbers with 1,000 feet separation. Eastbound flights fly at odd numbers, same 1,000 separation," she said. "Since the American pilots were flying northwest, they should not have been at 37,000 since that's odd."

 

[Gorilla]

I can picture a clearance: "Embraer 123, for traffic cross PONCE intersection at FL360." Given the usually very light traffic density, PONCE might have been 20 to 30 minutes ahead of them. They program the FMC for PONCE at 360, but don't set 360 in the altitude window. They forget, and disaster results.

Maybe something similar happened to the B737. Anyway, 95 times out of 100, the airplanes would still miss (big sky theory). This is just one of those horrible chain of events leading to catastrophe.

I'm just blown away that the Embraer survived. I can't imagine the mechanism that would allow this. Perhaps the Embraer winglet sliced laterally through a slew of 737 belly control cables and hydraulic lines, like a scalpel, putting the GOL out of control.

 

[Captain X]

I'm curious, regardless of what altitude either aircraft was at, why a NG 737 and a brand new Embraer which are both RVSM aircraft and would have TCAS installed did not get a Traffic Alert and Resolution Advisory. Or did they?

I know TCAS is not perfect -- maybe the manufacturers should come up with some way to improve upon its shortcomings.