Brazil Mid-Air Survivor

[wooferdog]

I'm curious, regardless of what altitude either aircraft was at, why a NG 737 and a brand new Embraer which are both RVSM aircraft and would have TCAS installed did not get a Traffic Alert and Resolution Advisory. Or did they?

I know TCAS is not perfect -- maybe the manufacturers should come up with some way to improve upon its shortcomings.

Because the Embrarer had its transponder turned off.

 

[wooferdog]

Those Legacy pilots are in deep, deep doo-doo.

 

[Kharma Police]

Those Legacy pilots are in deep, deep doo-doo.

Unlike the United States, pilots can be criminally prosecuted for accidents.

 

[mach zero]

GOL got a few of the ex-ATA 800's I believe. Anyone know if this was one of them?

 

[RP 04]

Got an e-mail from a buddy that works for a large US automaker down in Brasil (he is a former commuter pilot). According to him there is a rumor floating around that one of the A/C's had its Mode C turned off (don't ask my why, I'm just addng fuel to the fire)...

 

[Skyboy722]

GOL got a few of the ex-ATA 800's I believe. Anyone know if this was one of them?

Nah, I think I read in a previous article that the 737 was two weeks old.

 

[Networ-King]

Because the Embrarer had its transponder turned off.

Do you know this for a fact or are you just opening your trap and spouting off BS? If TCAS is not required for that region I'd find it very hard to believe that the brazilian GOL would be the one that would have their TCAS on and the american pilots that are used to flying with TCAS would have it turned off. The FO of the Legacy won 80 bucks form me in poker at my house so I want him to get his arse back here so I can win it back. Great guy and a great pilot. So unless you have real facts about this accident, I suggest you stop with the monday morning quarterbacking and let the investigators do their job.

I'm too lazy to find the article and put it up here, but ATC is being blamed for the accident. From what I've been told the legacy was told to remain at FL370, so they were doing what they were following ATC instructions. As for the Transponder and TCAS thing? Dunno.... thats the million dollar question right now.....

As for the guys calling these guys stupid?????

With 10000 hours in your profile, its hard to believe that you would say something that stupid, admit you were being a jerk and then not apologize for being an A$$HOLE. I've got buddies at SWA and right now they must all be proud of you buddy.

 

[Captain X]

Because the Embrarer had its transponder turned off.

I hope that is not true.

 

[wooferdog]

Do you know this for a fact or are you just opening your trap and spouting off BS?

Below is the article, Networ-King. It is you, my friend, who is "spouting off BS."

Having the transponder off is one thing. But, having the transponder off AND being at the wrong altitude is quite another.

I feel for these boys. I would not want to be in their shoes.


_______

Legacy jet transponder off in Brazil crash-report
Wed Oct 4, 2006 9:21 AM ET



By Terry Wade
SAO PAULO, Brazil, Oct 4 (Reuters) - Brazilian authorities believe two pilots may have shut off the transponder in their business jet, rendering its anti-collision system useless, before crossing paths with a commercial airliner that crashed last week in the Amazon, killing all 155 people on board.
Passports of the two American pilots, Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino were confiscated on Tuesday and will remain with Brazilian Federal Police during the investigation, said Judge Tiago de Abril in Mato Grosso state, where the plane crashed.
"We know that the transponder was turned off," said Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, the Estado De Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Wednesday.
The transponder is a key component of the anti-collision system that each plane was equipped with. The planes would not have detected each other if one of the two transponders were off, authorities said. The transponder also sends signals to air traffic controllers with details such as altitude and speed.
"A pilot only turns it off when he doesn't want to be identified. The Legacy could have turned it off to try some air tricks far from the eyes of the air traffic controllers," Pereira said. "But it also could have been a case of mechanical failure. It's very unlikely that a plane leaves the factory with that problem."
The business jet, a Legacy 600 made by Brazilian manufacturer Embraer <ERJ.N><EMBR3.SA>, was new and had been purchased by ExcelAire Service, a charter company based in Ronkonkoma, New York.
ExcelAire was not immediately available to comment on Wednesday.
The pilots were flying the Legacy to the United States when it and a plane flown by low-cost Brazilian carrier Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes <GOLL4.SA><GOL.N> apparently brushed each other in mid-air.
The business jet was able to land safely at a military base in the jungle. None of the seven people on board were hurt.
Air Force commander Luiz Carlos Bueno said on Monday both planes were flying at 37,000 feet (11,300 metres), which means that one of them had strayed from its flight plan.
Pereira of Brazil's airport authority, who was also a military pilot, told Estado that Gol's Boeing 737-800 was probably being flown on automatic pilot and closely adhering to its set altitude.
"The Boeing is like a bus. It never leaves its route," Pereira said. "With the automatic pilot its altitude varies at most by one meter."
At the crash site in a dense, remote area in the rainforest, salvage crews had recovered the remains of about 50 victims by Tuesday, including the airliner's two pilots.

 

[NYRANGERS]

Below is the article, Networ-King. It is you, my friend, who is "spouting off BS."

Having the transponder off is one thing. But, having the transponder off AND being at the wrong altitude is quite another.

I feel for these boys. I would not want to be in their shoes.


_______

Legacy jet transponder off in Brazil crash-report
Wed Oct 4, 2006 9:21 AM ET



By Terry Wade
SAO PAULO, Brazil, Oct 4 (Reuters) - Brazilian authorities believe two pilots may have shut off the transponder in their business jet, rendering its anti-collision system useless, before crossing paths with a commercial airliner that crashed last week in the Amazon, killing all 155 people on board.
Passports of the two American pilots, Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino were confiscated on Tuesday and will remain with Brazilian Federal Police during the investigation, said Judge Tiago de Abril in Mato Grosso state, where the plane crashed.
"We know that the transponder was turned off," said Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, the Estado De Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Wednesday.
The transponder is a key component of the anti-collision system that each plane was equipped with. The planes would not have detected each other if one of the two transponders were off, authorities said. The transponder also sends signals to air traffic controllers with details such as altitude and speed.
"A pilot only turns it off when he doesn't want to be identified. The Legacy could have turned it off to try some air tricks far from the eyes of the air traffic controllers," Pereira said. "But it also could have been a case of mechanical failure. It's very unlikely that a plane leaves the factory with that problem."
The business jet, a Legacy 600 made by Brazilian manufacturer Embraer <ERJ.N><EMBR3.SA>, was new and had been purchased by ExcelAire Service, a charter company based in Ronkonkoma, New York.
ExcelAire was not immediately available to comment on Wednesday.
The pilots were flying the Legacy to the United States when it and a plane flown by low-cost Brazilian carrier Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes <GOLL4.SA><GOL.N> apparently brushed each other in mid-air.
The business jet was able to land safely at a military base in the jungle. None of the seven people on board were hurt.
Air Force commander Luiz Carlos Bueno said on Monday both planes were flying at 37,000 feet (11,300 metres), which means that one of them had strayed from its flight plan.
Pereira of Brazil's airport authority, who was also a military pilot, told Estado that Gol's Boeing 737-800 was probably being flown on automatic pilot and closely adhering to its set altitude.
"The Boeing is like a bus. It never leaves its route," Pereira said. "With the automatic pilot its altitude varies at most by one meter."
At the crash site in a dense, remote area in the rainforest, salvage crews had recovered the remains of about 50 victims by Tuesday, including the airliner's two pilots.

That is speculation from an unreliable source. Mr. Pereira is only the head of the airport authority. Read the artilce below, a controller supervisor (who wished to remain anonymous) stated otherwise.




'ATC responsible for Brazilian plane collision'

Deutsche Press Agentur

Rio de Janeiro, October 3, 2006

Advertisement

Miscommunication between air traffic controllers was probably to blame for Brazil's deadliest-ever plane crash last week in which, 155 people died, the Brazilian daily O Globo reported.
The midair collision of a Boeing 737-800 and a smaller, twin-engine private plane occurred on Friday. Both machines flew into an air traffic control region in the state of Para jointly controlled from two separate towers, O Globo reported on Monday, citing a Brazilian air traffic control official speaking on condition of anonymity.
Controllers in the two towers failed to discuss that the planes were entering the same airspace and instead assigned similar flight altitudes to their respective planes, leading to the collision, O Globo reported.
The American pilot of the smaller Embraer Legacy plane managed to make an emergency landing at a military airstrip in Para.
Officials did not comment on the newspaper report and have indicated that a full probe into the mishap would take at least three months, given the difficulty of reaching the remote jungle crash site. The wreckage was not found until Saturday.
Brazilian Air Force (FAB) sources have been cited in the press as saying that the plane plummeted almost vertically in a heavily forested area with up to 70-metre-tal

l trees. The plane is said to have exploded when it hit the ground, though civilian aviation authorities have not confirmed the reported military description.
Previously, Brazil's worst aviation accident was in June 1982, when a Boeing 727 of the Vasp airline crashed into a mountain in the northeastern state of Ceara, killing all 137 people on board.
Another plane crash left three people dead on Monday in Brazil. The small PA32 machine apparently lost control minutes before its expected landing near the town of Pinheiro in the state of Maranhao.
The bodies of three people on board - two security agents and the pilot - were mangled and burned.

 

[RP 04]

"For fair and balanced news, read Hindustan Times"

This message has been approved by NYRANGERS

 

[landlover]

Below is the article, Networ-King. It is you, my friend, who is "spouting off BS."

Having the transponder off is one thing. But, having the transponder off AND being at the wrong altitude is quite another.

I feel for these boys. I would not want to be in their shoes.


_______

Legacy jet transponder off in Brazil crash-report
Wed Oct 4, 2006 9:21 AM ET



By Terry Wade
SAO PAULO, Brazil, Oct 4 (Reuters) - Brazilian authorities believe two pilots may have shut off the transponder in their business jet, rendering its anti-collision system useless, before crossing paths with a commercial airliner that crashed last week in the Amazon, killing all 155 people on board.
Passports of the two American pilots, Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino were confiscated on Tuesday and will remain with Brazilian Federal Police during the investigation, said Judge Tiago de Abril in Mato Grosso state, where the plane crashed.
"We know that the transponder was turned off," said Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, the Estado De Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Wednesday.
The transponder is a key component of the anti-collision system that each plane was equipped with. The planes would not have detected each other if one of the two transponders were off, authorities said. The transponder also sends signals to air traffic controllers with details such as altitude and speed.
"A pilot only turns it off when he doesn't want to be identified. The Legacy could have turned it off to try some air tricks far from the eyes of the air traffic controllers," Pereira said. "But it also could have been a case of mechanical failure. It's very unlikely that a plane leaves the factory with that problem."
The business jet, a Legacy 600 made by Brazilian manufacturer Embraer <ERJ.N><EMBR3.SA>, was new and had been purchased by ExcelAire Service, a charter company based in Ronkonkoma, New York.
ExcelAire was not immediately available to comment on Wednesday.
The pilots were flying the Legacy to the United States when it and a plane flown by low-cost Brazilian carrier Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes <GOLL4.SA><GOL.N> apparently brushed each other in mid-air.
The business jet was able to land safely at a military base in the jungle. None of the seven people on board were hurt.
Air Force commander Luiz Carlos Bueno said on Monday both planes were flying at 37,000 feet (11,300 metres), which means that one of them had strayed from its flight plan.
Pereira of Brazil's airport authority, who was also a military pilot, told Estado that Gol's Boeing 737-800 was probably being flown on automatic pilot and closely adhering to its set altitude.
"The Boeing is like a bus. It never leaves its route," Pereira said. "With the automatic pilot its altitude varies at most by one meter."
At the crash site in a dense, remote area in the rainforest, salvage crews had recovered the remains of about 50 victims by Tuesday, including the airliner's two pilots.

This whole article reeks of Brazilian goverment propaganda. "Lets see if we can crucify some americans to cover up our crappy airspace system."

 

[NYRANGERS]

"For fair and balanced news, read Hindustan Times"

This message has been approved by NYRANGERS

The article was released in ,and came out of Rio, the hindu times just reported a canned press release. It was reported in many other news papers, the times just happend to be the first one on a google search.

 

[Mason]

Pilots facing possible manslaughter charges.

Couldn't post the link but go to Yahoo! news and you will find link. Looks like the local authorities may be considering criminal chargers pending the investigation. Man what a horrible thing for everyone involved.

 

[Networ-King]

Below is the article, Networ-King. It is you, my friend, who is "spouting off BS."

Having the transponder off is one thing. But, having the transponder off AND being at the wrong altitude is quite another.

I feel for these boys. I would not want to be in their shoes.


_______

Legacy jet transponder off in Brazil crash-report
Wed Oct 4, 2006 9:21 AM ET



By Terry Wade
SAO PAULO, Brazil, Oct 4 (Reuters) - Brazilian authorities believe two pilots may have shut off the transponder in their business jet, rendering its anti-collision system useless, before crossing paths with a commercial airliner that crashed last week in the Amazon, killing all 155 people on board.
Passports of the two American pilots, Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino were confiscated on Tuesday and will remain with Brazilian Federal Police during the investigation, said Judge Tiago de Abril in Mato Grosso state, where the plane crashed.
"We know that the transponder was turned off," said Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, the Estado De Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Wednesday.
The transponder is a key component of the anti-collision system that each plane was equipped with. The planes would not have detected each other if one of the two transponders were off, authorities said. The transponder also sends signals to air traffic controllers with details such as altitude and speed.
"A pilot only turns it off when he doesn't want to be identified. The Legacy could have turned it off to try some air tricks far from the eyes of the air traffic controllers," Pereira said. "But it also could have been a case of mechanical failure. It's very unlikely that a plane leaves the factory with that problem."
The business jet, a Legacy 600 made by Brazilian manufacturer Embraer <ERJ.N><EMBR3.SA>, was new and had been purchased by ExcelAire Service, a charter company based in Ronkonkoma, New York.
ExcelAire was not immediately available to comment on Wednesday.
The pilots were flying the Legacy to the United States when it and a plane flown by low-cost Brazilian carrier Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes <GOLL4.SA><GOL.N> apparently brushed each other in mid-air.
The business jet was able to land safely at a military base in the jungle. None of the seven people on board were hurt.
Air Force commander Luiz Carlos Bueno said on Monday both planes were flying at 37,000 feet (11,300 metres), which means that one of them had strayed from its flight plan.
Pereira of Brazil's airport authority, who was also a military pilot, told Estado that Gol's Boeing 737-800 was probably being flown on automatic pilot and closely adhering to its set altitude.
"The Boeing is like a bus. It never leaves its route," Pereira said. "With the automatic pilot its altitude varies at most by one meter."
At the crash site in a dense, remote area in the rainforest, salvage crews had recovered the remains of about 50 victims by Tuesday, including the airliner's two pilots.

No no tis you that needs to put down the crackpipe and quit spewing BS, just because you read one brazilian article that in the first paragraph says they MAY have had their transponder off. If you're reading this and taking it as gospel then you have other issues you need to deal with. This is the only crash in their airlines history and the worst air disaster of its kind for them and to blame it on americans would be their top goal. Not sure how many of you actually have flown in and around Southamerica, but their government is not exactly known for their honesty or lack of corruption. At one of my old companies we had to take cash with us so that we could bribe them for fueling us and handling the paperwork, it is just second nature to the people of that region..... so you'll excuse me if I don't believe good old consuelo for telling me its the legacy jets fault because it has to be. Give me a break.....


ps. Yeah... just talked to a buddy about the law down there and he said ANY lawyer down there can request a criminal investigation in Brazil for any reason and we all know that all lawyer would hate to make a name for themselves with sh!t like this right?????

 

[Brasgaucho]

This whole article reeks of Brazilian goverment propaganda. "Lets see if we can crucify some americans to cover up our crappy airspace system."

The U.S. National Transportation Safety Board said it was sending a team of investigators, who would be joined by representatives from the Federal Aviation Administration and Boeing Co. The U.S. agencies were involved because the Gol plane was manufactured in the United States and the smaller jet was registered there.

 

[pookie]

We are saved, the FAA is on the way.

Its not like any corruption or scandals has ever happened in america.

 

[KeroseneSnorter]

155 Dead Brazilians...and 2 live foreign pilots....I would NOT want to be the crew of the Legacy right now. I hope they are gearing up with the best lawyers that money can buy or they may be in Brazil for a long long time.

Hopefully they cannot be blamed for the accident in any way, shape, or form.

 

[wooferdog]

The latest news:


_____

UPDATE 1-Legacy jet at wrong altitude in Brazil crash
Wed Oct 4, 2006 3:25 PM ET



(Reacasts with defense minister comments, changes dateline from SAO PAULO)
By Denise Luna
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil, Oct 4 (Reuters) - A business jet piloted by two United States citizens was flying at the wrong altitude when it crossed paths with a commercial airliner that crashed last week in the Amazon, killing all 155 people on board, Brazil's defense minister said on Wednesday.
The planes were both flying at 37,000 feet when the smaller plane and the bigger plane apparently scraped.
The business jet, a Legacy 600, was flying north toward Manaus, the capital of Amazonas state. Meanwhile, a plane flown by low-cost Brazilian carrier Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes <GOLL4.SA><GOL.N> was heading south from Manaus to the nation's capital of Brasilia.
"Flights from here (Brasilia) to Manaus should be at even-numbered altitudes, like 36 or 38 thousand feet," Defense Minister Waldir Pires said in a telephone interview. "And those from Manaus fly at odd-numbered altitudes."
The business jet was new and had been purchased by ExcelAire Service, a charter company based in Ronkonkoma, New York, from Brazilian manufacturer Embraer <ERJ.N><EMBR3.SA>.
ExcelAire spokeswoman Lisa Hendrickson declined to comment on Wednesday.
The pilots were flying the Legacy to the United States when its path and the Gol's intersected.
The business jet was able to land safely at a military base in the jungle. None of the seven people on board were hurt.
Authorities also believe the two pilots of Legacy may have shut off the plane's transponder, a decision that would have rendered its anti-collision system useless.
Passports of the two American pilots, Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino, were confiscated for the duration of the investigation, said Judge Tiago de Abril in Mato Grosso state, where the plane crashed.
"We know that the transponder was turned off," said Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, the Estado De Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Wednesday.
The transponder is a key component of the anti-collision system that each plane was equipped with. The planes would not have detected each other if one of the two transponders were off, authorities said. The transponder also sends signals to air traffic controllers with details such as altitude and speed.
"A pilot only turns it off when he doesn't want to be identified. The Legacy could have turned it off to try some air tricks far from the eyes of the air traffic controllers," Pereira said. "But it also could have been a case of mechanical failure."
Pereira told the newspaper Gol's Boeing 737-800 was probably being flown on automatic pilot and adhering to its set altitude.
At the crash site in a dense, remote area in the rainforest, salvage crews were still recovering remains on Wednesday.

 

[Networ-King]

The latest news:


_____

UPDATE 1-Legacy jet at wrong altitude in Brazil crash
Wed Oct 4, 2006 3:25 PM ET



(Reacasts with defense minister comments, changes dateline from SAO PAULO)
By Denise Luna
RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil, Oct 4 (Reuters) - A business jet piloted by two United States citizens was flying at the wrong altitude when it crossed paths with a commercial airliner that crashed last week in the Amazon, killing all 155 people on board, Brazil's defense minister said on Wednesday.
The planes were both flying at 37,000 feet when the smaller plane and the bigger plane apparently scraped.
The business jet, a Legacy 600, was flying north toward Manaus, the capital of Amazonas state. Meanwhile, a plane flown by low-cost Brazilian carrier Gol Linhas Aereas Inteligentes <GOLL4.SA><GOL.N> was heading south from Manaus to the nation's capital of Brasilia.
"Flights from here (Brasilia) to Manaus should be at even-numbered altitudes, like 36 or 38 thousand feet," Defense Minister Waldir Pires said in a telephone interview. "And those from Manaus fly at odd-numbered altitudes."
The business jet was new and had been purchased by ExcelAire Service, a charter company based in Ronkonkoma, New York, from Brazilian manufacturer Embraer <ERJ.N><EMBR3.SA>.
ExcelAire spokeswoman Lisa Hendrickson declined to comment on Wednesday.
The pilots were flying the Legacy to the United States when its path and the Gol's intersected.
The business jet was able to land safely at a military base in the jungle. None of the seven people on board were hurt.
Authorities also believe the two pilots of Legacy may have shut off the plane's transponder, a decision that would have rendered its anti-collision system useless.
Passports of the two American pilots, Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino, were confiscated for the duration of the investigation, said Judge Tiago de Abril in Mato Grosso state, where the plane crashed.
"We know that the transponder was turned off," said Jose Carlos Pereira, the head of Brazil's airports authority, the Estado De Sao Paulo newspaper reported on Wednesday.
The transponder is a key component of the anti-collision system that each plane was equipped with. The planes would not have detected each other if one of the two transponders were off, authorities said. The transponder also sends signals to air traffic controllers with details such as altitude and speed.
"A pilot only turns it off when he doesn't want to be identified. The Legacy could have turned it off to try some air tricks far from the eyes of the air traffic controllers," Pereira said. "But it also could have been a case of mechanical failure."
Pereira told the newspaper Gol's Boeing 737-800 was probably being flown on automatic pilot and adhering to its set altitude.
At the crash site in a dense, remote area in the rainforest, salvage crews were still recovering remains on Wednesday.

You apparently didn't read the article in the above post from NYRANGER huh? Well here it is again for you if you missed it.....


'ATC responsible for Brazilian plane collision'

Deutsche Press Agentur

Rio de Janeiro, October 3, 2006

Advertisement
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/<...GE_PATH/>0.gif
Miscommunication between air traffic controllers was probably to blame for Brazil's deadliest-ever plane crash last week in which, 155 people died, the Brazilian daily O Globo reported.
The midair collision of a Boeing 737-800 and a smaller, twin-engine private plane occurred on Friday. Both machines flew into an air traffic control region in the state of Para jointly controlled from two separate towers, O Globo reported on Monday, citing a Brazilian air traffic control official speaking on condition of anonymity.
Controllers in the two towers failed to discuss that the planes were entering the same airspace and instead assigned similar flight altitudes to their respective planes, leading to the collision, O Globo reported.
The American pilot of the smaller Embraer Legacy plane managed to make an emergency landing at a military airstrip in Para.
Officials did not comment on the newspaper report and have indicated that a full probe into the mishap would take at least three months, given the difficulty of reaching the remote jungle crash site. The wreckage was not found until Saturday.
Brazilian Air Force (FAB) sources have been cited in the press as saying that the plane plummeted almost vertically in a heavily forested area with up to 70-metre-tal

l trees. The plane is said to have exploded when it hit the ground, though civilian aviation authorities have not confirmed the reported military description.
Previously, Brazil's worst aviation accident was in June 1982, when a Boeing 727 of the Vasp airline crashed into a mountain in the northeastern state of Ceara, killing all 137 people on board.
Another plane crash left three people dead on Monday in Brazil. The small PA32 machine apparently lost control minutes before its expected landing near the town of Pinheiro in the state of Maranhao.
The bodies of three people on board - two security agents and the pilot - were mangled and burned.


I figured the color coding would help you out a little bit.

Now with the DFDR and the CVR of the legacy in perfect condition, why oh why is it taking so long to find out if the transponder and TCAS were on or off??? things that make you go hhhhhmmmmm.......you don't think they'd be trying to do whatever they could to blame the foreign pilots now would they? nnnnnaaaaaa never.